Author Topic: Anyone know 16th century Welsh?  (Read 1014 times)

Online Vance Mead

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Anyone know 16th century Welsh?
« on: Thursday 22 April 21 19:37 BST (UK) »
Can anyone help me translate a short Welsh text from the Court of Common Pleas in 1585?

This is a case of defamation. Usually they include the dafamatory speech in English, for example 'Thou are a false knave and a thief for thou hast stolen my cow.'

This is a case in Monmouth, Jevan Walter versus Jevan Thomas Jeyn ap Jevan, of Llangenye, Brecon, yeoman.

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT5/Eliz/CP40no1438/aCP40no1438fronts/IMG_1094.htm

The words in Welsh begin about ten lines from the bottom, starting with In hiis Wallicus verbis:
Llidyr wyt ti (aforesaid Jevan Walter) munend os di ledrettyst rwyd fyng kender sim koed ninei

This may not be possible, since this is my attempt to transcribe without understanding, so for example 'munend' might be nimend or something else.
Mead - Herts, Bucks, Essex
Pontifex - Bucks
Goldhurst - London, Middx, Herts
Kellogg/Kelhog - Essex, Cambs

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Anyone know 16th century Welsh?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 22 April 21 20:24 BST (UK) »
While I can’t help with the Welsh, I wonder if the word after Walter is actually innuend(um), and part of the Latin -- ‘implying the aforesaid Jevan Walter’. This Latin phrase would then be a gloss on ti (which I believe means ‘you’).

The Welsh would be what’s left: Llidyr wyt ti ... os di ledrettyst ... [etc.]

Online Vance Mead

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Re: Anyone know 16th century Welsh?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 22 April 21 20:54 BST (UK) »
Thanks Bookbox, I think you're right. I had guessed that ti must mean you or thou as there is similar form in other defamation cases.
Mead - Herts, Bucks, Essex
Pontifex - Bucks
Goldhurst - London, Middx, Herts
Kellogg/Kelhog - Essex, Cambs

Offline Mabel Bagshawe

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Re: Anyone know 16th century Welsh?
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 22 April 21 21:34 BST (UK) »
Not a 16th century but a modern welsh speaker and sadly can'r read they handwriting, but I can take a guess at  bits of  lidyr wyt ti ... os di ledrettyst . I suggest lleidr wyt ti..os ti lladratast ?? fy ngh?? 

You're a thief, if you stole my ??


Offline Ayashi

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Re: Anyone know 16th century Welsh?
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 22 April 21 21:37 BST (UK) »
I'm only learning Welsh so I'm sure a native or fluent speaker would have much better input:

My first thought was that "lleidr" in modern Welsh is "thief". That would make sense in context. ("You are a thief"). It is also using informal 'you', so two people who knew each other?

You are a thief if you something [you go?] ...

Now I'm curious what 'ledrettyst' is... 'st' is added for 'you' but I have no idea what the root word is.


Offline Mabel Bagshawe

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Re: Anyone know 16th century Welsh?
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 22 April 21 21:41 BST (UK) »

Now I'm curious what 'ledrettyst' is... 'st' is added for 'you' but I have no idea what the root word is.

Lladrata - to steal

Offline Ayashi

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Re: Anyone know 16th century Welsh?
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 22 April 21 21:45 BST (UK) »
Thanks :) You made your post while I was typing and I just decided to submit it anyway because I was pleased with myself for at least getting a word or two  ;D

Online Vance Mead

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Re: Anyone know 16th century Welsh?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 23 April 21 03:44 BST (UK) »
Thank you, Mabel and Ayashi, this has been very helpful.
Mead - Herts, Bucks, Essex
Pontifex - Bucks
Goldhurst - London, Middx, Herts
Kellogg/Kelhog - Essex, Cambs