Died at Sea - or did he?

[scotmum]

Potential red herring alert, but mentioning because of names, year and his county.

No other details, but FindMyPast has an Index to Death Duties record that concerns a deceased Patrick Collins, of  Dunkelly, County Cork. Executor is a Margaret Collins. Year is 1887. Court is in England, but only identified by the initials P (I think) R. Other courts on page have full name, but this particular court in other entries is also PR.

Don't suppose your chap was from there?

[mckha489]

Potential red herring alert, but mentioning because of names, year and his county.

No other details, but FindMyPast has an Index to Death Duties record that concerns a deceased Patrick Collins, of  Dunkelly, County Cork. Executor is a Margaret Collins. Year is 1887. Court is in England, but only identified by the initials P (I think) R. Other courts on page have full name, but this particular court in other entries is also PR.

Don't suppose your chap was from there?

No, he died 2 May 1877, Margaret is his sister.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=collins&yearOfDeath=1887&page=7#calendar

[Sandblown]

With all due respect, I believe there are a lot of coincidences to tie the ship suicide of Patrick Collins, to Your Family.

Suicide in an Irish Catholic Family, is a Cardinal Sin, and They would keep it very close mouth, within the Family. Perhaps Your Grandmother and Aunt possibly knew about it and weaved the story of the grave. Seems strange They couldn't remember where it was.

Your Cousin, may have been told, a half truth, of Patrick Collins dying by means of an accident, on board a ship, and the burial at Plymouth.

Was the Family emigrating to Australia ?

The Patrick Collins body appears not to have been recovered from the sea, so there would be no burial. It also appears that the drowning took place between the Port of London, and Plymouth. If Your G.Grandmother was on board, it would make sense to abandon the Emigration, and depart Ship at the next docking, which was Plymouth.

Too many coincidences, I believe.

[Winterbloom21]

Hi Sandblown,     Believe me, if I could be convinced about the Patrick Collins suicide story I would be delighted, because the story would be explained.      But I'm not.      I think that I have enough information about the family to dismiss it.

At no stage did the family ever consider emigration to Australia.     If any of our lot went anywhere further than Britain, they went to Canada.    Margaret travelled from Cork to London and was probably accompanied by her two sisters, Elizabeth and Katherine, both of whom settled in the same neighbourhood in Poplar and, like her, married Englishmen.

I have heard the story about Patrick 'falling down the hatch/stairs on board during a storm' from a number of different sources now.      I am more inclined to believe that, in all the upset, Margaret never got around to registering the death.

[scotmum]

.    The primary record of a birth or death at sea is the ship's official documentation. This usually means the ship's official log, which was introduced in October 1851, but until the early 1890s may be found on the back of crew lists, including those of passengers. 

per https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/research-guide-a3-tracing-family-history-maritime-records

[scotmum]

From marriage certificate, I see Patrick himself was a seaman RN. Do you believe he was likely working on their journey and Margaret was a passenger? Although when Cornelius was born on 10th June 1880, Patrick was described as a Naval pensioner.

[Sandblown]

https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=CQT4&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=1635&gsfn=Patrick&gsln=Collins&cp=0&msbdy=1852&_F50264B0=Garonne&_F16BCDBD=Irish&new=1&rank=1&uidh=az7&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=40&fh=1&h=3065756&recoff=&ml_rpos=2&queryId=eeefeb0352e0a90749be7c923f891036

The above Link is for the SS Garonne Passenger List, showing Patrick Collins. His named has been crossed out, as not reaching His destination. He is described as sailing from London, Irish, and born c.1850.

[Winterbloom21]

Hi Scotmum,

Thanks for the link.    I've had a look at several of the lists mentioned but so far with no luck.     I'm thinking that maybe he has just sort of fallen through the net because of the fact that the ship's journey was counted at the time as an 'internal' one - ie the two islands being in the UK at the time.    It would be a glorified version of people travelling on a long distance bus!

I know it says on the marriage cert that he was a seaman, but that is because he was a Royal Navy sailor.   He was discharged around 1881 (from memory).   By the time his son Cornelius was born, he was described as a 'navy pensioner'.   

I'm starting to think the unthinkable now and wondering whether, in view of the fact that the family had limited funds, they would simply have taken his body off the ship and buried him somewhere in Plymouth in an unmarked grave.     (I think the Covid era is affecting me here, being one of those people who couldn't go to her own mother's funeral).   

[Winterbloom21]

Hi Sandblown,

Thank you for the link.  I have all the papers that refer to this incident but, as I said in my other posting, I am now convinced this is not him.       

I appreciate what you say about the suicide aspect being possibly too unpleasant to talk about but I would say two things about that.    One is that Patrick Collins was not a blood relative of my relatives who passed down the story, so they would probably not have been too sensitive about this.    Secondly, Patrick Collins is a very very common name in Cork and there were countless immigrants with this name living in London.