Author Topic: Help with word in Scottish Baptism 1709  (Read 294 times)

Offline Jeffrey

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Help with word in Scottish Baptism 1709
« on: Monday 03 May 21 17:43 BST (UK) »
Can anyone help with a word in theses baptisms

24 July 1709

July 24th John Arm: & Bessie Arm: had a ? son baptised John
and further down the page
July 24th John Arm: & Bessie Arm: had a ? son baptised James Wit: to all William Arm: & Hollas

I believe these to be the same couple but the word I can't decipher is different.

Any suggestions please

Judy
CUMBERLAND  Armstrong Little Nixon Richardson Pearson Watson Braithwaite
WESTMORLAND  Richardson Dent Nicholson Hanson Kersey Smith Heigh
DURHAM Reed Smith Reay Hammond Metcalf Bell
Thompson Armstrong Branford Parkin Heaton Oates
NORTHUMB'LAND Nixon Johnson Armstrong Branford Thompson
DUMFRIES Armstrong Bell Halliday Little Carruthers Johnstone
YORKS Richardson Branford Siddle
ROXBURGH Jackson Elliot Armstrong Scott
FIFE Adamson Gosman Brown
AUSTRALIA Richardson Dent Hanson Kersey

Offline Albufera32

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Re: Help with word in Scottish Baptism 1709
« Reply #1 on: Monday 03 May 21 18:05 BST (UK) »
My guess is that James (who I think is the top one) is the lawful son, and John (the lower one) is a natural son (ie John was born before John and Bessie were married, and subsequently was only baptised in church along with his younger sibling James, born after his parents' marriage).

I do not think it is the same word in both lines.
Howie (Riccarton Ayrshire)
McNeil/ McNeill (Argyll)
Main (Airdrie Lanarkshire)
Grant (Lanarkshire and Bo'ness)
More (Lanarkshire)
Ure (Polmont)
Colligan (Lanarkshire)
Drinnan (New Zealand)

Offline GR2

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Re: Help with word in Scottish Baptism 1709
« Reply #2 on: Monday 03 May 21 18:10 BST (UK) »
July 24th John Arm: & Bessie Arm: had a laul son bap James

ibid John Arm: & Mary Hog had a laul son baptized William

ibid John Arm: & Bessie Arm: had a naal son baptized John

I assume the surname is Armstrong with the colon after Arm: as a sign of abbreviation.
Ibid is an abbreviation for the Latin ibidem, meaning "in the same place", although here it looks as if it is being used to mean "at the same time".

The line above laul and naal show they are abbreviations for "lawful" i.e. legitimate and "natural" i.e. illegitimate. John must have been born earlier, before they married. That said, in Scots law, if a couple who married had had a child before their marriage, that child was made legitimate by the subsequent marriage of the parents, provided they would have been free to marry one another at the time the child was conceived. Maybe worth checking to see if the minutes of the kirk session survive for that period.

Offline Jeffrey

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Re: Help with word in Scottish Baptism 1709
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 04 May 21 03:59 BST (UK) »
Thank you very much for the replies and suggestions.

I am now thinking there are two couples named John & Bessie Armstrong. As I have found births earlier than 1709  to a couple which were 'Lawful'.
But have found a marriage of a John & Bessie Armstrong in 1711.

Will see if there are any Kirk Sessions for this time.

Judy
CUMBERLAND  Armstrong Little Nixon Richardson Pearson Watson Braithwaite
WESTMORLAND  Richardson Dent Nicholson Hanson Kersey Smith Heigh
DURHAM Reed Smith Reay Hammond Metcalf Bell
Thompson Armstrong Branford Parkin Heaton Oates
NORTHUMB'LAND Nixon Johnson Armstrong Branford Thompson
DUMFRIES Armstrong Bell Halliday Little Carruthers Johnstone
YORKS Richardson Branford Siddle
ROXBURGH Jackson Elliot Armstrong Scott
FIFE Adamson Gosman Brown
AUSTRALIA Richardson Dent Hanson Kersey