Author Topic: Cant find 1949 stillbirth in GRO births or deaths.  (Read 1338 times)

Offline Althea7

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Cant find 1949 stillbirth in GRO births or deaths.
« on: Sunday 09 May 21 23:55 BST (UK) »
I looked on the GRO website searching for birth or death records for a stillborn baby boy who died in 1949. 

I have a mother's maiden surname, and she wasn't married, but the father could have registered the birth in his name.

The GRO doesn't give births between 1934 and 1984, so I can't use the mother's maiden surname to find his birth.

Is it possible to get the GRO to search for this?  How much would they charge?  Why are these birth records not available?  And is there a stillbirth register?  Would a stillborn child have both a birth and death record?

If we can find a death certificate, would it be that useful?  Would it just say stillbirth, or could it give other medical information?

Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Cant find 1949 stillbirth in GRO births or deaths.
« Reply #1 on: Monday 10 May 21 01:00 BST (UK) »
To appear on the GRO's Birth index and Birth certificates the child has to have been alive at birth ie to have drawn breath. For that reason sillbirths will not be found there.

From Familysearch: No provision was made for registering stillbirths until 1874, when a new law required a death certificate before burying stillborn children. Since 1927, all stillbirths (any birth where the child never took a breath) are recorded in the Register of Stillbirths, which is not available to the public.

From more official sources:
Due to the sensitive nature of stillbirth registrations, the procedure for ordering copy certificates differs from other types of certificates. Historic stillbirth certificates can only be obtained from the General Register Office in Southport. The General Register Office holds records of all stillbirths registered in England and Wales since 1st July 1927. Certified copies of these records can only be obtained with the Registrar General's consent.
The following conditions apply:
    a certificate will only be issued to the mother or father of a stillborn child
    siblings may apply if their mother and father are no longer alive
    siblings should send details of their parents' dates of death with their application

https://www.rbwm.gov.uk/home/community-and-living/births-deaths-and-ceremonies/registering-stillborn-baby/how-do-i-obtain-certificate-historic-stillbirth-entry

The Government's site says say have to apply by POST (not telephone)  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-order-and-pay-for-certificates No price is mentioned so would need to contact the GRO & ask https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/contact_us.asp

The GRO will only send out the application form after having been contacted by phone or in writing by the mother or father (if he is named on the certificate). However, there is a form here (don't know if current version) https://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/images/Still_Birth_Application_Form.pdf

see previous discussion on https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=724799.0 which has a link to this format example http://anguline.co.uk/cert/StillbirthR.jpg and http://anguline.co.uk/stillbirths.html

To my knowledge a Stillbirth sertificate = a birth & death certificate combined ie. you would only find a death cert if there has been a birth cert.
There is more info on roots chat
Quote
"Parents of the stillborn and siblings of the stillborn, if the parents are deceased have an uncontested right to be supplied with a certificate on payment of the appropriate fee.
All other people must give the Registrar General their reason for wanting a copy of the certificate and it his/her duty to decide whether to allow or disallow their application."   ... he cost used to be £15, I am not certain of today's cost
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=838516.msg7041366#msg7041366

Offline Althea7

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Re: Cant find 1949 stillbirth in GRO births or deaths.
« Reply #2 on: Monday 10 May 21 01:24 BST (UK) »
To appear on the GRO's Birth index and Birth certificates the child has to have been alive at birth ie to have drawn breath. For that reason sillbirths will not be found there.

From Familysearch: No provision was made for registering stillbirths until 1874, when a new law required a death certificate before burying stillborn children. Since 1927, all stillbirths (any birth where the child never took a breath) are recorded in the Register of Stillbirths, which is not available to the public.

From more official sources:
Due to the sensitive nature of stillbirth registrations, the procedure for ordering copy certificates differs from other types of certificates. Historic stillbirth certificates can only be obtained from the General Register Office in Southport. The General Register Office holds records of all stillbirths registered in England and Wales since 1st July 1927. Certified copies of these records can only be obtained with the Registrar General's consent.
The following conditions apply:
    a certificate will only be issued to the mother or father of a stillborn child
    siblings may apply if their mother and father are no longer alive
    siblings should send details of their parents' dates of death with their application

https://www.rbwm.gov.uk/home/community-and-living/births-deaths-and-ceremonies/registering-stillborn-baby/how-do-i-obtain-certificate-historic-stillbirth-entry

The Government's site says say have to apply by POST (not telephone)  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-order-and-pay-for-certificates No price is mentioned so would need to contact the GRO & ask https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/contact_us.asp

application form (don't know if current version) https://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/images/Still_Birth_Application_Form.pdf

see previous discussion on https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=724799.0 which has a link to this format example http://anguline.co.uk/cert/StillbirthR.jpg and http://anguline.co.uk/stillbirths.html

So unless you are a sibling (doesn't mention further direct descendant's) it seems unlikely you will be able to get anything from the GRO. To my knowledge a Stillbirth sertificate = a birth & death certificate combined ie. you would only find a death cert if there has been a birth cert.

The baby was my half brother who died years before I was born.  There may be relevant medical information, or that might have to be researched somewhere else.  It looks like it is down to me, as further direct descendants might not be able to claim this information from the GRO?

I hadn't seen this bit at the end of your post

"Parents of the stillborn and siblings of the stillborn, if the parents are deceased have an uncontested right to be supplied with a certificate on payment of the appropriate fee.
All other people must give the Registrar General their reason for wanting a copy of the certificate and it his/her duty to decide whether to allow or disallow their application."   ... he cost used to be £15, I am not certain of today's cost"

Thanks for that.  Unless they quibble that I am only the half sibling, I should be ok. I actually think the other person has an even better reason for wanting a copy of the certificate and I can't see the Registrar General refusing them. I just hope the GRO can find it, and also that there is some useful medical information either on the certificate or in some record that we can find from information on the certificate.

Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Cant find 1949 stillbirth in GRO births or deaths.
« Reply #3 on: Monday 10 May 21 01:46 BST (UK) »
sorry edited the final part of post at same time as your reply - after doing
a search for 'stillbirths' on here in the box at the top of screen.
The section quoted was only Oct last year being a reply from Guy Etchells who knows more than me on the legalities & technicalities of things GRO.

There are in fact a number of posts in recent years, one referring to even more on RootsChat Reference Library or Lexicon http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/reflib-lexicon.php?letter=S


Online KGarrad

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Re: Cant find 1949 stillbirth in GRO births or deaths.
« Reply #4 on: Monday 10 May 21 08:02 BST (UK) »
A few years ago, I applied for my mother's twin sister's stillbirth certificate.

I had to:
Telephone the GRO at Southport.
Explain why I wanted the certificate, and my link to the baby.
They posted to mean application form.
I filled that in and sent it back with the relevant fee (same as a normal certificate) together with a covering letter, with explanation again.

Stillbirth certificate duly arrived in the post.
The Stillbirth Register is not available online, anywhere.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline AntonyMMM

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Re: Cant find 1949 stillbirth in GRO births or deaths.
« Reply #5 on: Monday 10 May 21 09:50 BST (UK) »
From Familysearch: No provision was made for registering stillbirths until 1874, when a new law required a death certificate before burying stillborn children.

The FamilySearch wiki page on E/W civil registration isn't the best for accuracy.

A stillbirth doesn't require a death certificate (and never has).

What the 1874 Act said was that there should be a certificate from a doctor ( or just a declaration from a qualified informant)  confirming the child was stillborn, for the burial to take place...not quite the same thing.

Quote from: Althea7 link=topic=848591.msg7158286#msg7158286 date=1620[quote
The baby was my half brother who died years before I was born.  There may be relevant medical information, or that might have to be researched somewhere else.  It looks like it is down to me, as further direct descendants might not be able to claim this information from the GRO?

You shouldn't have a problem obtaining a stillbirth certificate from GRO if you contact them as advised by others - but I should mention that even today many stillbirth registrations don't give a specific cause or if they do they can be very vague ( like "foetal abnormality"). They are often issued by a midwife, not a doctor. I wouldn't expect things were any different in 1949.

Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Cant find 1949 stillbirth in GRO births or deaths.
« Reply #6 on: Monday 10 May 21 13:39 BST (UK) »
thanks AntonyMMM

appreciate the comment re. the Familysearch wiki, was aware of the fact it was a doctors authorisation, not a GRO Death Cert. I should have chosen a site with better initial wording so was more factually accurate to anyone later coming across the post. The remainder was OK though and that was the period of interest "Since 1927, all stillbirths (any birth where the child never took a breath) are recorded in the Register of Stillbirths, which is not available to the public."

So from 1927 the informant was to deliver to the registrar a certificate stating that the child was not born alive, signed by the registered medical practitioner who had attended the birth or examined the body of the child, or a certified midwife who was in attendance or examined the body in the absence of a doctor. Upon registering the stillbirth, the registrar was to give to the informant certification that he had registered the stillbirth, without fee, for the use of the undertaker or other person having charge of the burial.

From 1874 to 1926 Act the GRO were not involved.
Quote
Births and Deaths Registration Act 1874 Chapter 88. 18 Burial of deceased children as still-born.
A person who has control over or ordinarily buries bodies in any burial ground shall not permit to be buried in such burial ground the body of any deceased child as if it were still-born, and shall not permit to be buried or bury in such burial ground any still-born child before there is delivered to him either,—
(a) A written certificate that such child was not born alive, signed by a registered medical practitioner who was in attendance at the birth or has examined the body of such child; or
(b) A declaration signed by some person who would, if the child had been born alive, have been required by this Act to give information concerning the birth, to the effect that no registered medical practitioner was present at the birth...and that the child was not born alive

Quote
You shouldn't have a problem obtaining a stillbirth certificate from GRO if you contact them as advised by others - but I should mention that even today many stillbirth registrations don't give a specific cause or if they do they can be very vague ( like "foetal abnormality"). They are often issued by a midwife, not a doctor. I wouldn't expect things were any different in 1949.

You may be intersted to read this paper, came across it only a few weeks ago and skim read it.
It says registration of the causes of stillbirth was finally introduced into England and Wales in 1960 through the Population (Statistics) Act, until then there was no requirement as was thought medically complex and impractical given the low % of still-births attended by registered medical practitioners. Until 1960 it was only required to deliver to the registrar a certificate that the child was not born alive.

Stillbirth registration and perceptions of infant death, 1900–60: the Scottish case in national context
published 7 July 2009 https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1468-0289.2009.00478.x

Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Cant find 1949 stillbirth in GRO births or deaths.
« Reply #7 on: Monday 10 May 21 13:41 BST (UK) »
"II. The Births and Deaths Registration Act of 1926 aimed mainly to provide stronger safeguards against the concealment of crime in relation to the disposal of the dead. Local authorities could arrange for the medical inspection in certain instances of the body of the deceased, and could regulate certain means of disposal. Furthermore, stillbirths were required to be registered for the first time....The Act came into effect in July 1927 but did not apply to Scotland or Northern Ireland."

"III. The Registration of Still‐Births (Scotland) Act came into operation on 1 January 1939, extending the Scottish death registration process to any child born without sign of life after the twenty‐eighth week of pregnancy. Essentially the Act extended the operation of the existing legislation for England and Wales to Scotland, but with one important addition—that a statement of the cause or probable cause of death was required from the doctor or midwife who certified the stillbirth. This scheduling of the causes of stillbirth was seen to be innovative and potentially highly useful to those interested in the subject of infant mortality, the Registrar General for Scotland noting that it was the first official attempt to generate such a record in Britain since in England only the fact of the stillbirth had to be registered.
In November 1937, while the Scottish Registration of Still‐Births Bill was being prepared, the Scottish Registrar General had written to his English counterpart...asking whether cause of stillbirth had ever been considered when the bill that introduced English stillbirth registration was being drafted and, if so, why it was omitted. The response was that, despite much discussion...it had been deemed a ‘matter of extreme difficulty even for a registered medical practitioner to diagnose the cause of a stillbirth, and that in fact a comparative small proportion of stillbirths [were] attended by registered medical practitioners’."

"IV...A decade after stillbirth registration began in Scotland, the GRO in London, as a result of Scotland's apparent success in relation to stillbirth causation, began to consider implementing similar measures" After wide discussion of the matter, registration of the causes of stillbirth was finally introduced into England and Wales in 1960 through the Population (Statistics) Act." [end of section IV]

On re-reading was interesting to see the bit about the Notification of Births Act 1907. Does not require any register to be kept, but required informing the medical officer of both births & still-births - looked it up.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Edw7/7/40/enacted and also enacted Ireland 1907 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1907/act/40/enacted/en/print.html
Quote
(1) In the case of every child born in an area in which this Act is adopted it shall be the duty of the father of the child, if he is actually residing in the house where the birth takes place at the time of its occurrence, and of any person in attendance upon the mother at the time of, or within six hours after, the birth, to give notice in writing of the birth to the medical officer of health of the district in which the child is born, in manner provided by this section.
(5) This section shall apply to any child which has issued forth from its mother after the expiration of the twenty-eighth week of pregnancy, whether alive or dead.
Extended to take effect in every area by Notification of Births (Extension) Act 1915
Quote
(1) The [7 Edw. 7. c. 40.] Notification of Births Act, 1907 shall, on and after the 1st of September, 1915, extend to and take effect in every area in which it is not already in force.
(3)Where by virtue of this Act the principal Act comes into force in any area in which it is not already in force, it shall be the duty of the local authority to bring the provisions of the principal Act to the attention of all medical practitioners and midwives practising in the area.

Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Cant find 1949 stillbirth in GRO births or deaths.
« Reply #8 on: Monday 10 May 21 13:41 BST (UK) »
Here is the 1960 Amendment to the 1953 Births & Deaths Act
Quote
Population (Statistics) Act 1960, chapter 32.
2. Amendments as to certificates of still-birth in England and Wales.
(1) In section eleven of the [1 & 2 Eliz. 2. c. 20.] Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1953 (which contains special provisions as to the registration of still-births), for paragraph (a) of subsection (1) (which requires the informant to deliver to the registrar a written certificate that the child was not born alive, signed either by a registered medical practitioner or a certified midwife) there shall be substituted the following paragraph—
“(a) deliver to the registrar a certificate in the prescribed form signed by a registered medical practitioner who was present at the birth or has examined the body of the child, or, if no registered medical practitioner was so present or has examined the body, by a certified midwife who was so present or has examined the body, being a certificate stating that the child was not born alive and, where possible, stating to the best of the knowledge and belief of the person signing it the cause of death and the estimated duration of the pregnancy; or (1A) Every registered medical practitioner or certified midwife who is present at a still-birth or examines the body of a still-born child shall, at the request of any person who is a qualified informant as to the birth, give to that person a certificate for the purposes of paragraph (a) of the foregoing subsection.”

1960 Act: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/8-9/32/enacted
1953 Act: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/1-2/20/section/11/enacted