Brick Wall nealry solved? Help please!

[kjmck]

Hi Everyone,

I have a brick wall in my family tree that I had all but accepted and moved on from. I believe I have previously posted on it, but cannot find the threads.

It is regarding my 4x GG's Peter Thomson, herring fisherman, & Flora Hamilton.

This is the info I had.

Peter Thomson married Flora Hemmal 7th July 1827, Saddell & Skipness.
3 children - Duncan Thomson dies 1862 at Breckval, Kilberry. Margaret (marries a McCook) dies in 1899. Catherine, mentioned on the death record for Flora in 1867.

Peter Thomson I find on NO census records. Only firm census I can find for Flora is in 1861 - Flora Thompson, 70, Parliament Square Campbeltown, Late Fishermans Wife.

I could find no birth records for the children, Duncan, Catherine, & Margaret.

Story ended there - couldn't seem to go any further.

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Tonight I find a marriage between a Peter MacTavish in Aragaig, in the Parish of Claonaig & Flora Hamiltown in Lochkiaran, in Kilcalmonell & Kilberry, on 7th July 1827.

I then find births -
Margaret MacTavish, 15th Sept 1828 at Lochkiaran. (Says born in Fornication)
Catharine MacTavish, 28th Dec 1830 at Lochkiaran.
Duncan MacTavish, 7th Apr 1834 " "
Duncan MacTavish, 9th Dec 1835 " "

Peter is listed as being a Cottar at Lochkiaran.

I then notice the 1841 census I had previously saved for Archibald Hamilton, father to Flora. His residence is Lochkieranbeg in Kilacalmonell. Amongst the people living with him are Nancy Thomson, 8 & Duncan Thomson, 5.

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Margaret Thomson (daughter of Peter & Flora) marriage Hugh McCook. I had believed Hugh fathered an illegitimate son called William McCook/McTavish with another lady called Margaret McTavish, but now I am wondering whether William was born out of wedlock to Hugh & Margaret or whether Margaret had William by another man.

My question is that the marriage in Saddell & Skipness has Peter's surname as Thomson. But the one in Kilcalmonell has him as MacTavish. The children are born MacTavish, but from then on out are mainly Thomson. Why might this be? Any suggestions are welcome. It migt help solve a family riddle i'd not been able to solve for years.

Also - am i putting 2 and 2 together and getting 100?

Thanks in advance,

Keelan

[GR2]

McTavish is an Anglicised version of the Gaelic Mac Tamhais, a form of MacThamhais, which means the son of Thomas. I think that solves your McTavish/Thomson problem.

[kjmck]

Thanks for that info! Any idea why they would use MacTavish & Thomson silmultaneously, for example on the day of Peter & Flora's marriage, Peter was Thomson in Saddell & Skipness but MacTavish in Kilcalmonell & Kilberry. Does it depend on the Minister?

And I am also struggling to find a birth for Peter Thomson/MacTavish, would it also depend on who was writing the record as to what the surname would have been written down as?

[kjmck]

Also, I am a little confused with information given on Margaret MacTavish's baptism record in 1828. Her parents Peter & Flora married 7th July 1827, and Margaret was born 15th September 1828, but it says on her record that she was born in antenuptial fornication. I have looked but Kirk session records aren't available for the parish of Kilcalmonell.

[GR2]

With the parish registers it's what the session clerk (very often the schoolmaster) writes. As the registers were kept in English, it may well be that one clerk has Anglicised the name for that reason. Peter himself may have used MacTavish/Thomson interchangeably. That is not at all unusual.

Re the antenuptial fornication, the only way to be certain is to see if the kirk session minutes survive. Not all the existing volumes have been published on ScotlandsPeople. If the entry for the baptism definitely states she was born on 15th September 1828 as opposed to being baptised then, you should consider what the marriage entries in the two parishes say. Do they actually state that the couple were married on 7th July?

What appears in marriage registers is very variable. They can just record the "contract", i.e. that the couple had seen the session clerk and he had entered their names as intending to marry. Some refer to the "pledges" - a deposit made which was returned if the marriage went ahead with no scandal attached to it. Some refer to the proclamation of the banns. Some actually give the date of marriage. You were supposed to marry within 40 days of the initial contract. If an actual date of marriage is not given, it may be that they did not marry within the 40 days, but delayed until some time in 1828.

[wivenhoe]

"..3 children - Duncan Thomson dies 1862 at Breckval, Kilberry. Margaret (marries a McCook) dies in 1899. Catherine, mentioned on the death record for Flora in 1867."

What ages and birth place do you have for these three named?

Which of these three is your direct ancestor?

Do you have the marriage certificate for this ancestor?

Can you please list all the information on the death certificate, 1867, for Flora THOMSON.

Is Flora aged 70 at Census 1861, and married 1827 at age ~ 36 years?

Does Flora have children before this marriage, 1827?

[kjmck]

Re the antenuptial fornication, the only way to be certain is to see if the kirk session minutes survive. Not all the existing volumes have been published on ScotlandsPeople. If the entry for the baptism definitely states she was born on 15th September 1828 as opposed to being baptised then, you should consider what the marriage entries in the two parishes say. Do they actually state that the couple were married on 7th July?

On Margaret's birth record it states - 'Margaret daut'r by antenuptial fornication to Peter Mactavish & Flory Hammel Lochkiaran born 15 Sept 1828 registered 24 Nov'.

Marriage record for Peter Thomas & Flora Hemal in Saddell & Skipness Parish - 'July 7, Peter Thomson & Flora Hemal both of this parish'.

Marriage record for Peter Mactavish & Flory Hamiltown in Kilcalmonell parish - 'Eadem diem (7th July 1827) were booked in order to marriage Peter Mactavish in Aragaig in the parish of Claonaig and Flory Hamiltown in Lochkiaran and in this Parish of Kilcalmonell & Kilberry'.

I cannot see that it catergorically states they were actually married. Would they booked in order to marry in July of 1827, and still by September of 1828 not be married? A regular occurrence?

[kjmck]

What ages and birth place do you have for these three named?

Duncan dies 12th May, 1862 at Breckvar, a single man. Age given as 25. Parents - Peter Thompson, Herring Fisher & Flora Thompson m.s. Hamilton. Flora Currie (maternal first cousin) present.

Margaret married Hugh McCook/Cook 12th May, 1853 in the parish of Killean.
She dies 30th September, 1899. Married to Hugh Cook, Distillery Workman at Millknowe, Campbeltown. Age - 66. Parents - Peter Thomson, Seaman & Flora Hamilton. informant - Hugh Cook, son.

Flora dies 8th February, 1867 at Lady Mary Row, Campbeltown. Widow of Peter Thomson, fisherman. Age - 76. Parents - Archibald Hamilton, Country Workman & Ann Turner. Informant - Catherine Thomson, daughter, present

Which of these three is your direct ancestor?

Do you have the marriage certificate for this ancestor?

Is Flora aged 70 at Census 1861, and married 1827 at age ~ 36 years?

Does Flora have children before this marriage, 1827?

Peter Thomson/MacTavish & Flora Hamilton are my direct ancestors, and their daughter Margaret (McCook) is my 3x great grandmother, her son Peter McCook is my 2x great grandfather and so on.

I have the date of Marriage for Hugh McCook & Margaret Thomson, but I can't find a copy of the record at the moment.

Flora was baptised 6th October 1793, to Archibald Hamilton of Achnalad, Kilcalmonell & Kilberry. So potentially 33 years old when she married Peter.

I haven't found any children to Flora prior to her marriage in 1827.

[kjmck]

If I was to go by Scottish naming tradition, which I know wasn't always followed for whatever reason, then I see that Peter & Flora had two sons one in 1834 and one in 1835, both of which they named Duncan. I assume that the first born Duncan died in infancy. So i wonder if Peter's father was called Duncan as Flora's father was called Archibald. Flora's mother was called Ann, and her two daughters were named Margaret & Catherine, neither after their maternal grandmother.

Unfortunately as I believe Peter died before 1855, I am unable to see his parents details. And now finding the MacTavish connection hasn't helped me to locate his baptismal record as I don't know whether to search fro MacTavish or Thomson to help narrow it down.

And as of yet haven't found a death record for Catherine Thomson/MacTavish.