John McDowell born 5 May 1817 died in Antrim town 29 November 1886

[jnomad]

That Lizzie's father is the John McDowell I'm interested in is confirmed by the fact that the notice of the marriage in the Belfast Newsletter says that the officiating minister, William M'Lorinan, is an uncle of the bride. Her mother was born Elizabeth McLorinan. I didn't know she had a brother who was a Methodist minister.

[jonwarrn]

Hi
What a stroke of luck, well found. One thing often leads to another!
I think there may be some newspaper obits much later of John junior. But his father is still proving frustrating!
John

[jnomad]

Slip of the mind or keyboard: the officiating minister was Thomas McLorinan, not William.

[Elwyn Soutter]

The Methodist Historical Society in Belfast has Thomas McLorinan listed as a Minister. If you e-mail their historian he should be able to give you a bit of background on his career and his family:

https://methodisthistoryireland.org/people/ministers/#1506674992103-e211f38a-019f

[jnomad]

Thanks, Elwyn. I think a lot about his family has become fairly clear, thanks to jonw, on the more recent thread about the McLorinan family burying-ground. We knew from the Belfast Newsletter notice of the marriage of Lizzie McDowell that he was her uncle. Lizzie was a daughter of John McDowell, who died in Antrim in 1886 (you found his grave!). So Thomas was a brother of John's wife Elizabeth née McLorinan, a daughter of Henry McLorinan, who died in the presence of John McDowell in 1875. And jonw found a text that shows that Thomas McLorinan's mother, so Henry McLorinan's wife, was born Martha Mackey.

[jnomad]

John McDowell's sons as so far known:

Thomas Parker McD, born c. 1847
Henry McLorinan McD, born c. 1848
John McD Junior, born c. 1858

In Reply #1, shanreagh suggested trying to exploit a naming pattern to find John's father's name. But shanreagh's pattern seems to be Scottish rather than Irish? Anyway, there's a different naming pattern given on irelandxo.com:

First son named after father's father
Second son named after mother's father
Third son named after father
Fourth son named after father's eldest brother
And so on.

John's son Henry McLorinan McD flipped first and second in that pattern, as I pointed out in Reply #5; his first son (Samuel McMillan McD) was named after the mother's father, and second son (John McD) after the father's father. So the pattern, so modified, might serve as a template for understanding the naming of John's sons.

Henry's third son, another Henry McLorinan McD, was named after his father. Henry's fourth son, Thomas, can be named after his father's eldest brother Thomas Parker McD (no point in preserving the middle name). Fifth son is Alexander: perhaps named after his father's half-brother Alexander Mackey Parker, in a variation from the pattern. Sixth son William, named after ?

John's first son Thomas Parker McD, named after his mother's first husband, is outside the pattern. Henry McLorinan McD, named after his mother's father, is first in the pattern, according to the variation we find in Henry's sons. But the only so far known other son, John Junior, is named as if third in the pattern, after his father.

There is room between Henry McLorinan McD, c. 1848, or better between the two daughters born soon after Henry, and John Junior born c. 1858 for a so far unknown other son, who may have been named, as if second in the pattern according to the family variation as seen in Henry's sons, after John's father.

Could it be a William? Henry's sixth son William could then have been named after the eldest of his father's brothers whose name hadn't already been used.

Sorry this is so complicated. I would be grateful for any comments.

[aghadowey]

Not all families followed any naming pattern so for those that did it's only useful in hindsight. Even in those families the followed 'tradition' all sorts of events could throw a spanner in the works.
For example, death, or near death, of a relative might move their name up the 'list.' Possible inheritance (elderly, ill or wealthy relative) can also bring changes.

[jnomad]

Thanks, aghadowey.

But I wasn't suggesting the naming pattern provides an ironclad proof that John's father was called William. I noted variations in the pattern even in this family, and even in addition to the flipping of the more usual order of first and second that we see in Henry's sons: John's eldest son seems to be outside the pattern altogether, and Henry's fifth son Alexander is only marginally in it, not named after a son of John if he is named after Henry's half-brother. I meant to be constructing something in the spirit of shanreagh's suggestion, not at that point equipped with the explanation for the name of Thomas Parker McDowell that we now have, that John's father's name might be Thomas. That John's father's name may have been William is clearly no more than a possible clue in the absence of any hard documentation. Surely you aren't suggesting that the naming patterns shouldn't be used, with discretion, in looking for clues to answers for this kind of question.

[aaid]

As a McDowell whose Ancestry is in this period and general area but more in Connor Parish than Antrim its probably worth pointing out that John is the most common male name used and as they to one degree or another adhered to the naming tradition that goes down the generations which results in multiple John McDowells in the same area, of similar age, who were all named after the same grandfather.  I've spent a lot of time trying to sort out the various John McDowells in Crumkill, Slaght, Kells, etc., made a number of mistakes and still not sure if I've got it right.

As an example - and this may or maybe relevant to this case, I have an Ellen McDowell from Lisnevanagh who married a William Parker from Ballymacvea in 1852 at Connor Presbyterian.  Ellen's father and grandfather were both John McDowell.