Am I overlooking any records/sources in this brick wall? Sheffield, 1600s

[snuttall]

I'm looking to go further back from a Robert Challinor, born c. 1605 Sheffield.

I have several good sources of information for him:

1) His apprenticeship record - Robert Challinor, son of Thomas of Owlerton Sheffield, became an apprentice cutler in Little Sheffield in 1619 and a Freeman in 1631.

2) His marriage record and children's baptisms - he married Mary Greaves in 1631. Baptisms are recorded for nine children: Edward 1633, Sarah 1635, Anna 1637, Mary 1639, Mary 1641, Anna 1642, Thomas 1643, George 1646.

2) His will dated 1651. He leaves his estate to his son George Challinor, his daughter Mary Challinor, his brother Anthony Challinor, his sister Mary Marhon née Challinor, and her husband Thomas Marhon. He also mentions his friends Thomas Swift and Philip Challinor.

3) His sister Mary's marriage record - she married Thomas Marhon in Sheffield in 1639. Thomas was born in 1612 so I would assume Mary was a similar age.

What I can't find, however, is:

1) Robert's baptism

2) Baptisms for either of his siblings, Mary or Anthony.

3) Baptisms which indicate that anyone called Thomas was having children in Sheffield at that time - nearest match is an Elizabeth Challinor born to Thomas in 1589 and an Edward Challinor born to Thomas in 1585. These are matched by a marriage of Thomas Challinor to Joan Hagh in 1584.

Although this could be Robert/Mary/Anthony's father, that would mean Joan was having children for 27 years - and why would all three of their baptisms be missing?

4) I've also searched the National Archives and Ancestry for any other documents that might mention any of these people - directories, other wills and such - but all I found was Robert's will above.

Is there anything I'm missing? Anything else I can try? Thank you

[emeltom]

There is a baptism in Sheffield 6 January 1614 for a Mary Chalner with father Thomas but that is all I can find.

[snuttall]

There is a baptism in Sheffield 6 January 1614 for a Mary Chalner with father Thomas but that is all I can find.

That's more than I've found, thank you! What site did you find that on? I've combed Ancestry, Family Search and Sheffield Indexers or thought I had 

[QueenoftheWest]

There is a baptism in Sheffield 6 January 1614 for a Mary Chalner with father Thomas but that is all I can find.

That's more than I've found, thank you! What site did you find that on? I've combed Ancestry, Family Search and Sheffield Indexers or thought I had 

It's on Findmypast.

I certainly know the feeling of a brick wall  so here are a few comments/questions from me: 

Firstly, could you please link Robert's will and his apprenticeship papers. For some reason, I can't find either of them. Did his will describe him as a cutler?

Secondly, Robert's children were not all by the same woman; his wife, Mary, passed away in 1643 and was buried on 1st February. He remarried to a lady called Katherine Hinchliffe (who is described as 'widow') in on 29th August 1644. She must be the mother of George.

Thirdly, when researching this far back, it is often useful to map all families of the same name (in your case, it is a rather uncommon one) who were living in the same area around the same time. The Philip Challinor mentioned in the will is most likely the one who was baptised on 24th October 1613 in Sheffield, son of William. I wonder whether Philip was a cousin? There is an Anthony Challinor, son of William Challoner, baptised 5th Mar 1611 in Marsham, Yorkshire but the father is wrong so it must be a red herring.

Fourthly, there is an Anna, wife of Thomas, who was buried on 12th April 1617 in Sheffield - I wonder whether this is the mother? Robert had 2 daughters called Anna, so it was clearly an important name.

Sometimes, there is just no baptism to find, I'm afraid; either it hasn't survived or it was omitted or the parents were briefly non-conformists... who knows? The simplest explanation here is probably that Robert's baptism (and Anthony's) is unfindable, but, in my opinion, he is most likely the son of Thomas & Anna Challinor. It is not entirely satisfying but, unless you can find any evidence to the contrary, I'd say this is a reasonable assumption. Goodness knows where their marriage record is; these are some elusive folks!

Queenie 

[snuttall]

Ahh thank you, that's so helpful and thorough! A lot to think about - I think I'm going to have to get a FindMyPast or a month's sub because you have found records I haven't, particularly burials were very patchy elsewhere.

I have done as you suggested and written down all the Challinor records I've found from that time and tried to build a picture of who was around having kids at what time, but I think if I can find any of those extra records it will help.

His apprenticeship is on page 62 of this document - https://app.box.com/s/v8n1pp9g6z7kxb2652h4hc7jc0qvub36

But to spare you finding it, his line says:
"Challinor Robert son of Thos., Ollerton, dec., to Creswick Wm. Lttle Sheffield, c. [cutler]; II 1619, F. [Freedom] 1631."

There's also an apprentice called Phillip Challinor (son of Phillip) around the same time so perhaps that's his friend.

The will is here (Robert's starts halfway down the page) https://www.dropbox.com/s/chpsy65siv9bvs5/Robert%20Challinor%20Will%201651.pdf?dl=0

I found it hard to read so I may have missed it, but I'm not sure it said cutler or any occupation. It appeared to be quite legal boilerplate, not many specific details or bequests that might associate him with a specific profession.

[emeltom]

Fourth line of the Will after the words 'County of York' it says Cutler

[Jomot]

There is a burial 19 Nov 1615 Thomas son of Thomas Challner

[QueenoftheWest]

Ahh thank you, that's so helpful and thorough! A lot to think about - I think I'm going to have to get a FindMyPast or a month's sub because you have found records I haven't, particularly burials were very patchy elsewhere.

His apprenticeship is on page 62 of this document - https://app.box.com/s/v8n1pp9g6z7kxb2652h4hc7jc0qvub36

But to spare you finding it, his line says:
"Challinor Robert son of Thos., Ollerton, dec., to Creswick Wm. Lttle Sheffield, c. [cutler]; II 1619, F. [Freedom] 1631."

Glad I could help 

Of note is the fact that the father is described as deceased. This ties in with the burial of a Thomas Challoner in Sheffield in April 1617; his burial is only a few lines below the burial of Anna, wife of Thomas Challoner, so it looks like the children sadly lost both their mother and their father in quick succession. Perhaps there was an epidemic of some sort...

As emelton has already stated, Robert was indeed a cutler so I would say that he is almost certainly the son of this couple; there don't appear to be any other possible parents in the right area at this time.

I wonder who took the children in after the death of the parents. I believe orphans were quite frequently apprenticed out so it makes sense that Robert was.

Regarding a subscription to Findmypast, I think some libraries offer free access, but you'd have to check with your local one. There are sometimes quite good deals floating around on RootsChat; it's a shame you missed the Black Friday sale as there was 25% off.

I definitely prefer Findmypast over Ancestry; I just think the search function is far superior. However, Ancestry has more images and has digitised almost all the Wiltshire wills, which is a godsend for me!

Queenie 

[goldie61]

Once you get to the 16th and beginning of the 17th century, many records in the form of being able to find births deaths and marriages just do not survive for whatever reason.
Entries in parish registers, which were often just pieces of loose paper, can be patchy, or pages torn or rotted by damp, or eaten by insects or rats!
You have to look elsewhere.

Wills are one of the biggest sources of information.
You have already found a will for Robert. Have you searched for other Challinor wills prior to this? It may mean going through quite a number to build up a picture of the family around there at that time. Perhaps they came from elsewhere to Sheffield, so you may have to spread the net wider.
There do not seem to be any wills itemised for them on the PCC records at TNA (these will be the same as the PCC listings on Ancestry).
Sheffield Archives have this list:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/15a5dc8e-80a3-44a3-995f-2b61f2760322
From memory I think York wills are at The Borthwick Institute.

Do you know the occupation of Robert's father Thomas?
I see you say he lived at Owlerton.
There was an Owlerton Manor. The records of which are itemised here on TNA:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F244606
If the family lived in this manor, they may well have had to attend the manor courts and may be mentioned in the records.

There is also a site called WAALT run by the University of Houston.
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/Main_Page
Who have digitised scores of Medieval and later documents.
You may like to have a ferret around.


By the way, have you not seen all the replies to your other post yesterday regarding cutler apprenticeships? Several people have made replies on it.