Author Topic: 18th Century Welsh Surnames Question  (Read 2471 times)

Offline mickster99

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18th Century Welsh Surnames Question
« on: Tuesday 18 January 22 16:13 GMT (UK) »
Recently, I've been running across an issue with 18th century Welsh surnames.  In particular, different databases are making different assumptions (or possibly making errors) about the correct surnames gleaned from records of baptism.  Here is an example:

The original 1784 baptism record reads "John the Son of Robert Dyer and Mary"

Ancestry.com's "Wales, Select Births and Baptisms, 1541-1907" index lists the child as John Robert.

Family Search's "Wales, Carmarthenshire, Parish Registers, 1538-1912: database and FindMyPast's "Parish Records Collection 1538-2005" database lists the same child as John Dyer.

I see this discrepancy over and over again.

Is the Ancestry index simply in error?  Or did they make an assumption that 18th century Welsh children were taking the father's given name as their surname?  If the latter, how often would that be true?   Thanks in Advance!

Offline nestagj

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Re: 18th Century Welsh Surnames Question
« Reply #1 on: Monday 07 February 22 18:37 GMT (UK) »

Is the Ancestry index simply in error?  Or did they make an assumption that 18th century Welsh children were taking the father's given name as their surname?  If the latter, how often would that be true?   Thanks in Advance!

It would be true very often, it wouldn't be an assumption but a difference in the indexation ; welsh families were still using the patronymic method of naming children in some cases up to the 1850s.  You'll find this more in the western reaches, West Caernarvonshire, Merionethshire, Cardiganshire, Pembrokeshire, West Carmarthenshire and some of the families were very early non-conformists...

Lets look at my great (2) grandmother the daughter of John Howell b 1790 and Mary Griffith, his wife b 1802 ; firstly her mother kept her maiden name despite marriage; in all the census's she and her siblings are called Howell, but on her marriage certificate she's known as Jones (John's).    Her siblings seem to pick and choose what they are named depending on what they're doing - B.D & M they seem to like Jones and census seem to be Howell.   Now to John and Mary's parent's ..John's father was Howel Edward and Mary's father was Griffith Jones.  John's sibling was called Edward Howell and his children became eventually Howell despite playing with the surname Edwards on occasion.

This is just one family, if you follow other families in rural Wales this seems to happen a lot.

I am extremely lucky in that this family and others in my tree were Scottish Baptists (nothing to do with Scotland but a small breakaway group of Baptist set up in Wales in the 1790's.   As they practised adult baptism the group recorded children's births but not just the child's name ....for example here is the text of my GG grandmother's entry:
1848 On this day was born, Elliw, daughter of John Howell, by his wife Mary Griffith, who was the daughter of Griffith Jones and Gwen Robert, present at the birth were Elliw Jones and Gwen Robert.  Elliw Jones was the witness to John and Mary's marriage in 1824.    There are pages and pages of such entries within the book; which covers the congregations of the Ramoth Chapel in Llanfrothen and Rehoboth Chapel in Harlech.   My family have continued to bury their relatives in Rehoboth to the present day.    I believe these records are available online but are not the easiest to find.
Nesta

Offline mickster99

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Re: 18th Century Welsh Surnames Question
« Reply #2 on: Monday 07 February 22 20:29 GMT (UK) »
Thank You!

Offline Gadget

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Re: 18th Century Welsh Surnames Question
« Reply #3 on: Monday 07 February 22 21:09 GMT (UK) »
I seem to remember (from about 20 years ago)  that the IGI in Family Search did this for pre-1812 records.They assumed the use of the semi-patronymic for all of the records. 

I've not looked recently as I've used other sources (including FindMyPast and other local info) for tracing my Welsh ancestors.

Gadget
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Offline phenolphthalein

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Re: 18th Century Welsh Surnames Question
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 08 February 22 04:25 GMT (UK) »
Someone else may have raised this point and I apologise if this is so.
A missing comma or a hidden column might make all the difference. 
John s of Robert, Dyer is different from John son of Robert Dyer.
Dyer is an occupation.

Sometimes the surname preceeds the childs name followed by fathers forename and mother's forename with or without the father's occipation in between.
Another common practice is for the parents' forenames to be together preceeding the surname.

I have seen a record where the father's occuparion is given as the maiden surname of the mother.

The only solution is to view the original record and if possible those surrounding it.
And if searching for records to think laterally.

Even indexing at the time of the records can be wrong
but as more and more records are being indexed by people unfamiliar
with older handwriting and with conventions of the time
and sometimes with no interest in Genealogy
and often only English as a second language,
it should not be surprising to find faulty records.
There was a rumour some years ago that Ancestry hired Chinese people
to index English records.

Regards
pH

Offline Gadget

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Re: 18th Century Welsh Surnames Question
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 08 February 22 10:21 GMT (UK) »
I don't think so, phenolphthalein, It's probably caused by a wrong interpretation  of Welsh patronymics. The IGI used this  for all of it's pre-1812 records.

See previous replies.

Gadget

add -  see the eg given by the OP

Quote
The original 1784 baptism record reads "John the Son of Robert Dyer and Mary"
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Offline Gadget

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Re: 18th Century Welsh Surnames Question
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 08 February 22 10:29 GMT (UK) »
snip of part of the original entry
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Offline Gadget

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Re: 18th Century Welsh Surnames Question
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 08 February 22 10:51 GMT (UK) »
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

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