Author Topic: Property Ownership  (Read 1084 times)

Offline karen13

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Property Ownership
« on: Tuesday 12 April 22 22:15 BST (UK) »
Hi,
Just wondering if there is a way of finding out if a relative owned or rented a house in Paddington area of London in the 1930's.
We are particularly interest in No 9 Brindley Street and 2 Church Street

Thank you for your time and any guidance.
Roberts/Osliff/- Barrow in Furness,Lancashire
Roberts/Hill - Wilts
Curry/Crickmay/Dowling- Bristol
Flack/Reynolds - London
Jones - Paddington
Unger/Parker - Canada
Holiday - Canada

Offline PaulineJ

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Re: Property Ownership
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 12 April 22 22:25 BST (UK) »
Electoral registers?
Rate books?
Wills?

Pauline
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Offline nuff

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Re: Property Ownership
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 24 April 22 15:39 BST (UK) »
what is the surname of relative?

Online Jebber

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Re: Property Ownership
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 24 April 22 16:32 BST (UK) »
The  Land Registry will tell you the ownership, if they were registered, but not all property was registered at that time..
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.


Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Property Ownership
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 24 April 22 20:01 BST (UK) »
Regarding the Registry of Ownership for Paddington, scroll down and see under ...
Administrative History:

Middlesex Deeds Registry 1709 to 1938
https://search.lma.gov.uk/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/LMA_OPAC/web_detail?SESSIONSEARCH&exp=refd%20MDR

According to the link narrative, it looks like Paddington was transferred to the National Land Registry and registration became compulsory in 1899 for these parts.
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Sometimes the main Occupier or the principal Occupier might also be mentioned in Deed ownership registrations if Occupying at the time of ownership transfer.

A Principal Occupier (if they were named) also sublet, so no guarantee of finding names of Undertenants, without checking how detailed the Deed or Registration was.

Deed Registration was often only a summary of a larger Indenture / Conveyance, document, etc.

Mark

Offline karen13

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Re: Property Ownership
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 09 June 22 22:43 BST (UK) »
what is the surname of relative?

Powell  or Jones in Brindley Street
Wall in Church Street
Roberts/Osliff/- Barrow in Furness,Lancashire
Roberts/Hill - Wilts
Curry/Crickmay/Dowling- Bristol
Flack/Reynolds - London
Jones - Paddington
Unger/Parker - Canada
Holiday - Canada

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Property Ownership
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 15 June 22 22:28 BST (UK) »
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/hm-land-registry-portal-request-historical-copies

I last paid £4 for the last transfer of a Title for a current modern property and £4 for the Title Plan. However, on some of these previously I've had a reference to an earlier 20th Century Transfer and it just might mention the person you are looking for, or owner who shared perhaps the entry to the rear. If not it may give you a Title Number at least, to send for any historical copies to see what was recorded and if of any use.

Check the current Title Plan address matches the address location and numbering on an early 20th Century Large Scale OS Map with numbering of circa 1930, to confirm that no renumbering / renaming etc., has taken place, which sometimes happened as places grew.

Some houses might be owned by the same person, builder or local authority. Is a builder's name or house name visible besides a number, which might be found in newspapers?

Some Wills say things in detail like, I bequeath numbers 8, 10, 12, 14 and 18 Church End Road to my Gt Nephew Mr R. _____, except No.16 which I sold to Mr R Fortescue in 1928.

Or a newspaper might happen to report the Auction last week, 16 Church End Road was knocked down to Mr S. Smith of Pontypridd.

One Will, I got recently for my Family Tree said I bequeath all my Property in Trust. My Housekeeper Mrs _____ will administer the Trust for my Family, so the Will gave me absolutely sweet nothing, no family members nor property locations!
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Even the old Voters Polls or Rolls of House Owners in England only sometimes gave one 'qualifying address' to vote in that locality.

Eventually, that stopped and you did not need to own any property for the entitlement to vote and by 1930 a Voters / Electoral Register wouldn't confirm Ownership
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I was looking for Land Revenue Registers and found these which start off with Runcorn and Cheshire
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=LRR&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv
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A historian contact of mine found his older property amongst The National Land Revenue (LR) records, but I have never found one identifiable property in LR. However, I never gave it long enough to understand whether the different parts and volumes of the LR series cross referenced with each other and also because the old building being researched was owned by one of the Lords of the Manor and subject to a 'Quit Rent' and felt the Lord's records would be more helpful and they were.

Land Revenue Records
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C200
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A newpaper Sale advert before and after your relatives lived there (if it was advertised) might sometimes confirm the owner.
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The 1910 Valuation Survey with both an OS Plan and property description should give the Owner in 1910, who can be a relative of a previous or later owner when researched, or might have left a Will, or advertised the address later (proving he or she was the owner during the 1930s), a record of which might be in a local paper, or a Sales Particular in an Archive.
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If a subsequent Owner has lodged his/her Deeds at an Archive (voluntary) they might show up on a search of all the Archives databases in the area, or in an Archive near the owner's address who made the voluntary deposit.
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Some Deeds for my Family have no Public listing, but are deposited in a Solicitors Place of Deposit and I had to go to the current location today, which had been identified from various old records, Yorkshire Property Memorial location descriptions, Street Maps / Plans, Town Surveys, Census, an old postcard and see what building stands there today, to track down who and which Section was responsible and make formal written permission to their Solicitor to see if they would allow me to make an appointment.

Even a page from an 18th Century Family Bible, showing our link to the Burton family was amongst the Family Deeds and it took a whole week to go through the two packs.

At some Archives, some Deposited Deeds are still on Handlists (not on Online Databases) and will require a reading of handlists.
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I have found Deed and Manor documents relating to various Ancestor properties for Sale at Ephemera Sellers and purchased the originals during the last 30 years.
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Sometimes one can be lucky and drop on a Family Deed but some addresses I've kept an eye out for many years off and on and never found anything. Even a Historic Land Registry enquiry failed to find the early 20th Plan used to Register the address. Only a late (fairly recent) Plan with a several L.R. Historical Registrations, with references to it being Transferred out of other Titles.

If the Owner who owned the address of interest, owned the whole block back in 1930 or other houses or land nearby, you can even find neighbours with their Deeds which mention the property / ies next door and if friendly with current Owners, sometimes they might be prepared to show a known enquirer. Many don't reply to a polite letter of introduction or the slightest bit interested in their property history, but about 10 to 20% can be later contacted verbally by knocking their F/dr (after a letter) and the odd one who knows you might help, or simply say they are private and have to respect that, or say their Deeds are in Storage and they probably are, or only have the last Transfer to them.

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Property Ownership
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 16 June 22 01:45 BST (UK) »
I once wanted two Conveyances:- one an 1840s and one 1860s Deed, both with Surface Plans of 2 Farms with Fields which gave the Field names. The area had been mined under and owned by two Collieries who were predecessors of the National Coal Board.

On enquiry to Coal Authority Archives, Mansfield, I was told I needed a Search £67 (and I could choose and request several search words such as village names, farm names, surnames etc.,) which gave me a comprehensive tabulated list of every dated document and date, that they hold for my village and surrounding townships and which Archive box each Farm document was in.

Two Vellum Conveyanřces both with numbered field Plans with a key of Field names and a Set of 1877 Sale Particulars with Plan (with what I would call very medium quality colour scanning) were about £250. Plus the original £67 search (£180 today). I cant believe those pack of A4 sheets about 3/4 of an inch thick would cost £180 now!

I'll keep them safe!
 ............................
Here are their Fees on their website now
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/the-coal-authority/about-our-services

Historic Enquiries charges

Service                                                                                                                                Charge   VAT     Total
Formal letter to confirm plans approval re: structural precautions covenants   £140   £28    £168
Request search of Coal Authority records for land ownership history   £150   £30      £180
Certified deeds & documents   £90     £18   £108
Uncertified deeds & documents   £65      £13   £78
Certified title deed copy   £250   £50          £300
 ................................................
Comment
Sometimes, when researching a property it does depend on how much pre archive visit research is done of possibly available items, then time spent at the Archive, effort and money and who you have to use to obtain the information / documentation required and which a person considers will satisfy their curiosity.

Offline karen13

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Re: Property Ownership
« Reply #8 on: Friday 17 June 22 23:16 BST (UK) »
Thank you for all the lead/ideas on where to look - This has been a tremendous help.
Thank you for your time spent.
kind regards
Karen
Roberts/Osliff/- Barrow in Furness,Lancashire
Roberts/Hill - Wilts
Curry/Crickmay/Dowling- Bristol
Flack/Reynolds - London
Jones - Paddington
Unger/Parker - Canada
Holiday - Canada