Still Looking for Thomas Williams

[Talacharn]

Previously, I asked more general questions, but now I have something specific. In 1881, Thomas Williams is living in Laugharne, but was born in Newcastle Emlyn, Cardiganshire. He married Margaret Howell in 1855 at Laugharne. I have only found him on the 1881, 1901 and 1911 censuses, with both their ages a little wayward. From the marriage certificate, he was 2 years younger than Margaret and his father was John Williams a Labourer. I know Margaret was born in 1834, therefore Thomas was born 1836, on the Cardiganshire side of Newcastle Emlyn. I believe the Cardiganshire side is important.

I found a baptism and considered others, but this one seems the front-runner.
Glynarthen Other Transcript Penbryn, Cardiganshire
b.21 Feb 1836 . bp.25 Jun 1836
Thomas Richard Williams
Father: John Williams . Labourer . Mother: Margret Richard
Abode: Penhywpale
Note: Birth place is Troedyraur-CGN
(An alternative record says, Christening: Thomas Richard or Williams
b.27 Feb 1836 . Illegitimate Son Born Troedyraur)

How do I prove, or disprove this record? By 1841, Thomas would be 4/5 years old and should be with a parent. I have searched through Cardiganshire and Carmarthenshire for either parent and have not found anything. By 1851, he would likely be working, which could be anywhere, though by 1855, he had met and married Margaret Howell. She was living at Llansadurnen, Laugharne, but I cannot find her on the 1851 census either. I have found a possible mother; but he is not in the household (HO107 . Piece/Folio 1377/23 . Page 11 . Residence Note Penrhupale). There is a son called John Richard, born 1836. Could John be Thomas Williams? In 1851, Margaret Richard claims to be unmarried and a Glove Knitter. Then in 1861, she is widowed, living at Yetgoch and a Gloves Widow (1851: HO107 . Piece/Folio 2482 / 395 . Page 12 . 1861: RG09 . Piece/Folio 4182 / 52 . Page 12 . Line 3).

I have reached a stalemate, as I cannot prove, or disprove my findings, so I am hoping someone may show me the next move.
Talacharn

[rosie99]

The image for the Non conformist baptism is on FindMyPast and confirms
25th June 1836 - Thomas Richard. Male - Illegitimate - Date of birth February 27th 1836
parents John Williams (Occ Labourer) and Margaret Richard

[rosie99]

How do I prove, or disprove this record? By 1841, Thomas would be 4/5 years old and should be with a parent. I have searched through Cardiganshire and Carmarthenshire for either parent and have not found anything. By 1851, he would likely be working, which could be anywhere, though by 1855, he had met and married Margaret Howell. She was living at Llansadurnen, Laugharne, but I cannot find her on the 1851 census either.

I have found a possible mother; but he is not in the household
(HO107 . Piece/Folio 1377/23 . Page 11 . Residence Note Penrhupale).
There is a son called John Richard, born 1836. Could John be Thomas Williams?  In 1851, Margaret Richard claims to be unmarried and a Glove Knitter.

Then in 1861, she is widowed, living at Yetgoch and a Gloves Widow
(1851: HO107 . Piece/Folio 2482 / 395 . Page 12 .
1861: RG09 . Piece/Folio 4182 / 52 . Page 12 . Line 3).

(1851: HO107 . Piece/Folio 2482 / 395 . Page 12 .
Just adding, has a son Henry age 10 with her

[Talacharn]

I have found Henry Richard(s) on later census records in the same area and in 1891 he is a widow with 2 daughters, both born in, or near London. As yet, I have not found a census for London; and I cannot find a baptism or registration for his birth. Added: On the 1891 census, his birthplace is Troedyraur, Cardiganshire.

The daughters have mmn Davies. I found  a marriage Apr-Jun 1878 in Westminster Volume 1a Page 887 to Anne Davies. There are marriages in Wales but none fit geographically; and there is a link to London.

[osprey]

possible 1881 census for Henry, age a little out but other details fit.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27S-7XY3

birth regs
Daniel Richards june qtr 1879 London City vol 1c pg 18 mmn Davis
Margaret Jane Richards dec qtr 1880 Poplar 1c pg 663 mmn Davies
Eleanor Henrietta Elizabeth Richards june qtr 1884 Southwark 1d pg 107 mmn Davies

[Talacharn]

Thanks Osprey, I found 3 different census records for him yesterday and should have said something here. The records are from Cardiganshire and I cannot find anything from London where the daughters were born. From the GRO, their mmn was Davies. I did find a marriage from Apr-Jun 1878 in Westminster to an Anne Davies. The issue is, I cannot find a baptism or registration for him. And, I cannot find a birth for John Richard.

The baptism for Thomas Williams in 1836, has their abode Penrhupale, which links to census records. She has to be his mother. But on the 1841 census, the child born in 1836 was named as John, which was his father’s name. In 1841, he was 4/5 years old and should be with one of the parents. By 1851, he will be working and could be anywhere.

Today, I looked for John Richard in census records. There is one from 1851, born close to Newcastle Emlyn in 1836, but a few miles further away from Penrhupale. They cannot be twins, with the same father, or both would be baptised.

[Talacharn]

In looking for Thomas Williams b.1836, in Newcastle Emlyn, Cardiganshire.
I believe he is Thomas Richard/Williams, the illegitimate son of Margaret Richard and John Williams. Finding the father of any illegitimate is difficult.
Now I have unearthed an 1841 census record, with a Williams family, also living in Penrhywpale.

1841 Census: Penrhupale . Troedyraur . Newcastle Emlyn . Cardiganshire
David Williams . 45 (1792-1796) . Cardiganshire
Ann Williams . 40 (1797-1801) . Cardiganshire
John Williams . 15 (1822-1826) . Cardiganshire
Mary Williams . 15 (1822-1826) . Cardiganshire
Samuel Williams . 12 (1829) . Cardiganshire
David Williams . 11 (1830) . Cardiganshire
Anne Williams . 5 (1836) . Cardiganshire
HO107 . Piece/Folio 1377/23 . Page 10

This John Williams seems too young, as he would only be 11 in 1836. From old maps, Penrhywpale is a hamlet. To also have a Williams family living there, they need to be considered. I am now wondering if David had a brother called John, living in, or visiting Penrhywpale. I am struggling to find the parents of David Williams. Can anyone find them, and then I can look for a brother?

But, there is this baptism:
The two records are so similar to the baptism of Thomas 22 years later. Thomas was baptised in Brongwyn and Glynarthen; and was born in Troedyraur-CGN. Could this be John, the father of Thomas, with his parents?
Bron-Gwyn Congregational Circuit Register Other Transcript . Cardiganshire
Baptism: John Williams . 07 Sep 1814
Parents: William and Ann Williams
Notes: Born Troedyraur

Penbryn Glynarthen Other Transcript . Cardiganshire
Baptism: John Williams . 07 Sep 1814
Parents: William and Ann Williams
Notes: Birth place is Troedyraur-CGN

[osprey]

possible baptism Troedyraur

3 May 1797 David son of John William taylor

1851 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGZM-P91

1861
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7DH-VVN

I think that David's marriage to Ann was his second

First marriage in Penbryn 29 July 1825 David Williams of Troedyraur & Elinor Jones of Penbryn, witnesses David Jones & David Evans, all signed except Elinor.

Possible burial in Penbryn 3 June 1831 Elinor Williams  35 of Cwmyllwydrew

Second marriage Troedyraur 5 Feb 1835 David Williams, widower, and Anne Thomas, witnesses Samuel Morris & Thomas Powell, all signed except Anne.

Baptism in Troedyraur
5 Nov 1826 Mary daughter of David & Elinor Williams
Non conformist baptism
Anne daughter of David, taylor, and Anne Williams (Anne was Anne Thomas widow) of Pensarngerig, Troedyraur, born 8 Dec 1835 and baptised 21 Feb 1836 at Twrgwyn Chapel.

[Talacharn]

Thanks Osprey, I will look into what you have found.

I now have this census record, again living at Penrhiwpal.
If he is the father of John, his wife should be Ann, so I think Rachel may be his second wife, which could explain Catharine and/or Benjamin.
1841 Census: Penrhupale . Troedyraur, Newcastle Emlyn, Cardiganshire
William Williams . 55 (1782-1786)
Rachel Williams . 60 (1777-1781)
Mary Williams . 25 (1812-1816) . Cardiganshire
Catharine Davies . 15 (1822-1826) . Cardiganshire
Benjn Thomas . 15 (1822-1826) . Cardiganshire
HO107 . Piece/Folio 1377/23 . Page 10