HARPER/HARPUR in Lisadian / Loughgilly, Co. Armagh

[jasegervase]

My ancestor, Eliza HARPER/HARPUR, was born 12 February 1819 probably in Lisadian, Loughgilly, to William and Jane HARPUR. She married Thomas CASTLES around 1843 (probably in Belfast) and emigrated to the States soon thereafter.

She had three siblings that I know of: James, born around 1815, married Jane GEDDES on 2 Dec. 1847 in Calry, Co. Sligo, and emigrated to Canada; Margaret Elizabeth, born around 1821 and died unmarried 12 August 1911 in Newry, Co. Down; and Agnes, born around 1824, married Alexander ARBUTHNOT on 26 March 1847 at Kingsmill Pres. Church in Lisadian, died 24 Nov 1900 in Belfast.

Their mother, Jane, died around 1827. The father, William, remarried to Agnes STITT around 1831. William and Agnes had 8 children: Robert, Isabella, Mary Jane, William Jr., Matilda and three infants. William died 29 August 1874 in Lisadian and left a will.

Questions:
1) How can I access the church records of Kingsmill Presbyterian Church?
2) Do the 1841 Census of this area exist?
3) There's a gravestone for the HARPUR family in Lisadian. How do I obtain a photograph?
4) What other resources should I check for more information about this family?

Thank you,
Jason

[eileenwilson]

No census (beyond fragments) exist prior to 1901. 

Presbyterian records for Kingsmill only begin in 1842 and are in local custody.  After 1845, they are online at RootsIreland (paid site).

Cemetery records are available at:  http://www.ancestryireland.com/family-records/gravestone-inscriptions/  -- a paid site.  For pictures, you should contact the church directly to see if there is someone local who can take a picture for you.

PRONI has Freeholder Records which date from late 1700s to about the 1830s showing Harpurs in the area.  William had a 40 shilling freeholding, and was a tenant of John Moore:

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/search-freeholders-records

[eileenwilson]

I would also question of a brother James marrying in Co. Sligo in 1847 given the long distance from County Armagh unless you have other corrroborating evidence.

[eileenwilson]

The 1861 census in Chatham, Kent County, Ontario shows James, a painter, a widower, with several children.  The eldest two were born in Lower Canada (Quebec).  Baptism for son William in Sherrington, Quebec, gives Jane's maiden name as Robinson.

[eileenwilson]

There is also a baptism for an Eliza Harper in 1849 in La Prairie, Quebec, the daughter of James Harper and Jane Geddes.

[jasegervase]

Thanks for the info! I have all these, and was hoping to find more.

My proof that James was a sister of Eliza is from the 1880 census of Newark, NJ. Jane Geddes Harper (daughter of James) was listed as a niece of Thomas Castles and his wife, Eliza Harper. One of James' children, James Ffolliot Harper, was born in Newark in 1852.

I was also puzzled about the distance between Sligo and Co. Armagh. The marriage record shows that Jane Geddes' father was Archibald. There was an Archibald living in Co. Down, which is also a bit of a distance from Calry. However, I am 100% certain this is the right couple. I suspect that James and Jane married there right before they emigrated to Canada. 

James and Jane's children were:
1) Eliza Jane, born 19 April 1849 in Saint-Patrice-De-Sherrington, Les Jardins-De-Napierville, Québec, Canada, died 29 April 1919 in Highland, MI
2) William Henry, born 19 Oct 1850 in Saint-Patrice-De-Sherrington, Les Jardins-De-Napierville, Québec, Canada, died 21 May 1906 in Harwich, Ontario, Canada
3) James Ffolliot, born Aug 1852 in Newark, NJ, died 14 Jan 1911 in Kansas City, MO. His death record lists his mother as "GEDDES".
4) George, born about 1854 in Chatham, Ontario, Canada, died aft 1871
5) Frederick A., born 16 Nov 1856 in Chatham, Ontario, Canada, died 1 Feb 1939 in Detroit, MI
6) Jane Geddes, born May 1860 in Chatham, Ontario, Canada, died after 1915 in Newark, NJ

After Jane Geddes died, James remarried to Mary Ann Knapp and had a son named Benjamin Knapp born 17 Jan 1864 in Chatham, Ontario, Canada and died 19 March 1934 in Chatham, Ontario, Canada.

[eileenwilson]

Geddes is definitely an Ulster name with only one entry on Griffiths that is not in Armagh or Down (one entry in Cork); however, if Archibald was a gatekeeper, he may not appear in the Griffiths.

There is a marriage of a likely sister to Jane -- Anne Geddis, of Hazlewood, daughter of Archibald, a gatekeeper, married in Sligo, to a Jackson Thorence, so it would look like more of the family was in Sligo and not just passing through.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1852/09439/5419541.pdf

Also, the marriage of a Henry Geddes, a widower, son of Archibald, a caretaker, marrying in Sligo to a Eliza Kerr:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1870/11392/8182932.pdf

Henry's first marriage in 1852 puts him in Co. Fermanagh:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1852/09434/5417644.pdf

This is likely Henry's death in 1901 (informant is his son Archibald of Kingstown, Dublin):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1901/05719/4613527.pdf

Henry's entry in the 1901 census shortly before his death indicates he was born in Co. Sligo:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Bundoran/Drumacrin__part_of_Bundoran_1_/1166677/

The 1901 Census shows Archibald in Dublin with two nieces born in Montreal that may be worth following up on:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Kingstown/Crofton_Terrace/1318677/

[eileenwilson]

Here's the marriage record for the parents of the two nieces born in Montreal -- Marie Geddes married to a William Watson in Kings County in 1881. William was a commercial traveller from Montreal:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11011/8026292.pdf

Another child of the couple born around 1884 died in Vancouver in 1969:

https://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Image/Genealogy/478929d8-5fc0-4078-a740-f10e35af9247

Baptism of Kathleen occurred at Erskine Presbyterian Church, Montreal on 18 December 1889, born 26 December 1888.

Obituary for William Lyle Watson of Cross Lake, Minnesota, formerly of Montreal, in his 90th year, on March 16, 1945; survived by two sons, Colonel Harry A. Watson of Lakewood, Ohio; William Lyle Watson of Edmonton, Alberta; Mrs. Kathleen Geddis Knox and Mrs. Marion McCormick, of Belfast, Northern Ireland.

The two young girls must have been sent back to relatives in Ireland when his wife died.  Death record for Minnie Geddes, wife of William Lyle Watson, commercial traveller, of the City of Montreal, died at Metis, Quebec on 10 July 1895, in her 36th year, buried in Montreal.

Baptism for Marion Montgomery Watson, daughter of William Lyle Watson & Minnie Geddes, born May 2, 1894, baptized February 13, 1895 at Erskine Presbyterian Church in Montreal.