Are these the same couple?

[zumaro]

I was researching George Sinclair married to Christian Murray in Halkirk, and on familysearch I discovered them and their family, but combined with what seemed to me to be another family centered around George Sinclair and Christian Sinclair in Thurso.  My question is, are these two families the same?

From ScotlandsPeople I have the following information:

GEORGE SINCLAIR/CHRISTIAN SINCLAIR (no marriage record)
All children are baptized in Thurso parish.

• William 31/08/1771 – in Brims
• Margaret  13/02/1774 - in Brims
• James   28/03/1777 – in Brims
• Alexander  06/05/1785 – in Brims
• Betty  09/02/1788 – in Brims

All the entries look perfectly normal, no mention of fornication, a changing cast of witnesses to the baptisms. Betty is said to be a posthumous child, daughter to Geo by Christian Sinclair, so presumably Christian Sinclair died in childbirth or subsequently. 

GEORGE SINCLAIR/CHRISTIAN MURRAY - marriage 1778 in Halkirk (top of page is so dogeared, all you can judge is that theirs was the last marriage in 1778, as the next entry is in 1779. You can also make out that George was from Gerstone)
All children are baptized in Halkirk parish.

• James 21/11/1779 – in Gerstone
• George 02/06/1781 – in Lousery
• Margaret 18/08/1782 – in Lousery

Again nothing remarkable about the entries, no witnesses repeated from before.
What would people make of this? There is a claim from descendants that I take seriously, that these families are the same, and we are simply dealing with a case of maiden name/married name being recorded. 

[GR2]

In Scottish records, a woman is always called by her maiden name, so that suggests they are two separate couples.

Re the posthumous child, that means the father has died before the birth.

[zumaro]

My experience of this is exactly the same - I have never seen a woman referred to in these old baptism records by their married name. Other entries on the same Thurso pages are clearly referring to women's maiden names, so I didn't even contemplate that Christian Sinclair would be anything but her maiden name.

Posthumous child can't refer to death of the mother?  Googling the phrase just says it refers to the death of one of the parents.  I thought the phrasing of it seemed more as if George was still around.

[ColC]

I note the 1778 marriage, which seems to fit with the baptisms you mention
SINCLAIR   GEORGE   CHRISTIAN MURRAY   00/00/1778   Halkirk

I also note the baptisms you mention for GEORGE SINCLAIR/CHRISTIAN SINCLAIR. A GEORGE SINCLAIR/KATHARINE SINCLAIR also had children baptised in the same period. There is one marriage near to Thurso below, but it could have been either of these couples.

SINCLAIR   GEORGE   NAME NOT GIVEN   12/12/1767   Reay

Personally I cannot see a connection to George & Christian Murray?

Colin

[zumaro]

On the face of things, the only thing I can see that might suggest that these couples are the same, is the baptisms of Christian Murray's children fit very tidily into a big gap between baptisms for James and Alexander in Christian Sinclair's children.


I see baptisms of children in Reay after this marriage, where the mother is also not stated just father George. You can also clearly see baptisms at the same time for Katherine Sinclair and George Sinclair.  My guess it is some poor anonymous woman lost to history here, even in childbirth.

[GR2]

What is the wording on the posthumous entry? I have never seen the word used in reference to a dead mother in an OPR entry.

[zumaro]

This is the whole entry, just in case it conveys something in how it is written. I have never seen an entry like this before, so I was just guessing. I thought it was more likely the mother had died than the father, although admittedly the only time this happened in my family tree it was the father. Nothing was entered on that particular baptism entry however.

[Forfarian]

You said there was nothing unusual about the first three baptisms, so it would be reasonable to suppose that they were legitimate, born before the marriage of George Sinclair and Christian Murray in 1778. Therefore they are not the same family.

I agree that if the mother's surname is recorded at all, it is always her maiden surname. Therefore, again, these are two different families.

A posthumous child is one born after the death of its father. I have checked this interpretation with the Oxford English Dictionary, which is rather more reliable and authoritative than Google on such matters. Betty was still a daughter to her father George even though he had died. (In the 18th century it would have to be a pretty extraordinary set of circumstances for a child to be born after its mother's death.)

[zumaro]

Thanks for the help everyone - and I have learnt a new term "posthumous child". I feel more empowered now to answer the descendents of George Sinclair, with a bit of authoritative backing.