Author Topic: Loans detailed in will  (Read 461 times)

Offline alocin66

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Loans detailed in will
« on: Saturday 13 August 22 11:27 BST (UK) »
Dear collective wisdom,

Would anyone have any thoughts on the attached details from a 1895 will.

This man was a labourer in Glasgow and I wish to find out more about him. Would he have been a moneylender? How did people start out as one - where did they get the money to begin with etc.

Many thanks,

Nic
Barr - Antrim, Londonderry
Baxter - Londonderry
Beggs - Antrim
Cabey - Co Clare, Cardiff
Calderwood - Killydonnelly, Antrim
Caldwell - Down
Connor - Antrim, Down,
Davies - Cardiff
Edmonds - Down
Eston - Antrim
Gilton - Tipperary, Cardiff
Gourley - Antrim
Kerr - Glasgow, Londonderry, Antrim
Marshall - Cardiff, South Shields
McCullough - Antrim
McFinan, Down
McNary - Antrim, Down
Montgomery - Antrim
Nicholas - Cornwall, Cardiff
Torren(s) - Down

Offline still_looking

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Re: Loans detailed in will
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 13 August 22 16:33 BST (UK) »
Loans to family form part of an estate.

Could the person named be a relation? The loans may have been a way of helping to keep the recipient solvent between rent payments or help with rent payments.

S_L

Online Rena

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Re: Loans detailed in will
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 13 August 22 17:12 BST (UK) »
All cash, value of property, loans and debts are part of an estate and have to be included in the value of the estate.  Depending on the era, possibly there may be tax to pay to the government on the total value of an estate.  do not cheat the taxman lol

If there were three inheritors (say) the estate would be shared amongst the three inheritors.  There would b e bad feelings if one inheritor had been getting handouts from the deceased whiklst he was alive; the bequests will usually show £xx to Charlie; £xx to Tom and £xx to Harry minus £x. This latter being the total of the loans he's had during my lifetime.


One of my ancestors had his estate valued and one item was a book valued £11.00 that one of his customers had purchased but hadn't paid for.   When the executors wrote to the client the book was returned stating she didn't want it any more.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline GrahamSimons

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Re: Loans detailed in will
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 13 August 22 17:52 BST (UK) »
I've seen this in Scotland as well - the debts were business ones, and were split into sperate and desperate (took me a while to work that out - those with a hope of being paid, and those with no hope - my Latin teacher would be pleased I'd remembered spero, I hope)
Simons Barrett Jaffray Waugh Langdale Heugh Meade Garnsey Evans Vazie Mountcure Glascodine Parish Peard Smart Dobbie Sinclair....
in Stirlingshire, Roxburghshire; Bucks; Devon; Somerset; Northumberland; Carmarthenshire; Glamorgan


Offline alocin66

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Re: Loans detailed in will
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 13 August 22 19:15 BST (UK) »
Thank you all for your thoughts.

Yes, still_looking, the the majority of loans were to his son. How would a labourer be able to afford to lend any money in the first instance? His son was a marine engineer so would be earning more as an officer.

Thanks Rena - going to try and delve a bit deeper into it.

GrahamSimons - thanks for the info!


Barr - Antrim, Londonderry
Baxter - Londonderry
Beggs - Antrim
Cabey - Co Clare, Cardiff
Calderwood - Killydonnelly, Antrim
Caldwell - Down
Connor - Antrim, Down,
Davies - Cardiff
Edmonds - Down
Eston - Antrim
Gilton - Tipperary, Cardiff
Gourley - Antrim
Kerr - Glasgow, Londonderry, Antrim
Marshall - Cardiff, South Shields
McCullough - Antrim
McFinan, Down
McNary - Antrim, Down
Montgomery - Antrim
Nicholas - Cornwall, Cardiff
Torren(s) - Down

Online Rena

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Re: Loans detailed in will
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 13 August 22 21:15 BST (UK) »
Thank you all for your thoughts.

Yes, still_looking, the the majority of loans were to his son. How would a labourer be able to afford to lend any money in the first instance? His son was a marine engineer so would be earning more as an officer.

Thanks Rena - going to try and delve a bit deeper into it.

GrahamSimons - thanks for the info!

Coincidentally I was deep in reverie today about people in my past.     One person was a female clerk who was quite embarrassed that her OH was a labourer working for the town council emptying dustbins (garbage bins).   I imagine his parents couldn't afford to buy an apprenticeship for him. 

You wouldn't have guessed at his occupation because they lived in a nice part of town.    Due to his job he had plenty of free time during the day and his hobby was buying run down houses, upgrading them whilst living in them for a year (so he didn't have to pay tax on his profits), then selling at a profit and choosing another run down house to buy, etc. etc.

I think when we see that one of our ancestors was a labourer we shouldn't dismiss them as not having skills in the job that they're doing, maybe they've chosen not to disclose how they earn their real money.

Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline alocin66

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Re: Loans detailed in will
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 13 August 22 21:56 BST (UK) »
That is a very good point indeed, Rena. Thank you for raising it.

If anyone else can enlighten me about moneylending in Glasgow, I am still interested.
Barr - Antrim, Londonderry
Baxter - Londonderry
Beggs - Antrim
Cabey - Co Clare, Cardiff
Calderwood - Killydonnelly, Antrim
Caldwell - Down
Connor - Antrim, Down,
Davies - Cardiff
Edmonds - Down
Eston - Antrim
Gilton - Tipperary, Cardiff
Gourley - Antrim
Kerr - Glasgow, Londonderry, Antrim
Marshall - Cardiff, South Shields
McCullough - Antrim
McFinan, Down
McNary - Antrim, Down
Montgomery - Antrim
Nicholas - Cornwall, Cardiff
Torren(s) - Down

Online Rena

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Re: Loans detailed in will
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 14 August 22 01:20 BST (UK) »
One of my ancestors was penniless when he arrived in England and made a living making and selling ice cream and growing and selling vegetables.   Growing and selling cut flowers was a booming industry around the time you're researching.

This may be clutching at straws, but I notice the year these loans started was in 1887 and coincidentally this Act became law in 1887:-

I am now going to "ramble" so bear with me  :D

For centuries each village, hamlet, town had a "Common" this was a patch of land which the locals used for all sorts of things such as a place to meet, to do laundering of clothes, the family cow and chickens might be let out onto the Green to graze, etc., etc.   Then came the Enclosure of Land Act, which eventually led to:-

The Allotment Act 1887
Allotments and Cottage Gardens Compensation for Crops Act 1887 obliged local authorities to provide allotments if there was a demand for them. The local authorities resisted complying with the act and revision was required to strengthen the act.

Allotments are specifically for growing food for the family plus any excess can be sold to help the family's finances.  This means allotment holders could use their allotments not only for growing fruit and vegetables but could also use it to raise chickens, goats, geese and sheep and maybe a cow for milk.

I noticed that about that time there were moves to set up an Institute of Marine engineers.    I think it might be the case that father and son made an arrangement whereby the son would organise regular meetings for groups of marine engineers and his father would provide either flowers for the dining tables, or provide food.
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Institute_of_Marine_Engineers

Or son was in the local Masonic organisation/Orange Order and his mother provided the food, which his father paid for.

I think I'm all out of ideas now.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline still_looking

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Re: Loans detailed in will
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 14 August 22 10:55 BST (UK) »
Thank you all for your thoughts.

Yes, still_looking, the the majority of loans were to his son. How would a labourer be able to afford to lend any money in the first instance? His son was a marine engineer so would be earning more as an officer.

Thanks Rena - going to try and delve a bit deeper into it.

GrahamSimons - thanks for the info!

I'd add a few questions:
How did the son become a marine engineer and how could he afford to do so?
How early in his career was the son at this point, could he have been repaying loans/costs incurred during his training?
Was the father always a labourer?
What kind of labouring work did he do?
How large a family was the son supporting?
Were the son and father the only wage earners in the family/families?
Were the family in Ireland renting, if so was it just a home/homes or was there a farm involved?
Could the father have been staying with friends/family while labouring?

What a labourer earned would vary but there are sources out there which give some indication of how much that might have been depending on what he was doing. The same would apply to marine engineers.

S_L