Scott and Clarke families of Skreen

[lmgnz]

Hi

I am trying to sort out the relationships of some of the Clarkes of Ardnaglass. There are a couple of Clarke families that are not supposed to be related to my Clarke family of Carrownree but I thought I would try and sort them out.

I  particularly want to be sure I have the correct relationships for the Scotts who married  the Clarkes in the family of John Clarke of Soodry (in Griffiths Valuations of 1857) presumed son of James Clarke of Soodry (in 1833 Tithes)

I do  not have a record for the burial of this John Clarke at Skreen so think he may have died before 1877 as I only have access to the the records from 1877.

I believe John was the John Clarke of Ardnaglass who was listed as the father of the following people:

#1 Margaret Clarke aged 21 daughter of John, married John Scott of Drumnagool,  son of Patrick,  in 1855. So Margaret was born c1834

This couple were in Drumnagool in 1911 and are buried at Skreen.
Margaret Scott died 6 Dec 1919 aged 87 and her death was registered by her son William.
I cannot find John's death registration but the burial record shows he died  April 1922 aged 93.

#2 Thomas Clarke widower aged 34, son of John,married Catherine Scott aged 25 of Carrowdurneen, daughter of Robert in 1872. So Thomas Clarke was born c1837.

This couple were at Ardabrone in 1911 and are also buried at Skreen.
Thomas Clarke died 7 May 1924 aged 87
Catherine died 18 Apr 1932 aged 90.

#3 William Clarke son of John married Emma Siddons in 1872. William's age was not given and he left Ireland before 1901, though their children were born at Soodry and baptised in Skreen apart from the youngest child Emma who was born in Boston c1885. William seems to have died between 1885 and 1887 when his wife Emma remarried. But as I have not found that death, I do not know when approximately William was born.

#4 Mary Clarke of Ardnaglass aged 17, daughter of John married Robert Scott, widower of Doonalton son of Patrick, in 1856. So Mary was born c1839.

As it happens Robert was previously married to Mary Wallace, a niece of my 2x gt grandmother Mary Wallace of Easky. At the time of that marriage (1853) Robert gave his location as Mullaroe (Skreen).

So my main question is whether the Patrick Scott, father of Robert is the same Patrick Scott who was the father of John. Patrick Scott of Drumnagool died March 1882 aged 98. Death registered by grandson William Scott.

To complete the list of children of John I have:
#5 Sarah Clarke    b c 1845         m  1865   Edward Williams
#6 Susan Clarke   b c 1845         m 1867    John Martin

I would be also interested to know if the two Scott families of Skreen (of Carrowdurneen and Drumnagool) were related to each other. 

I would be grateful if anybody can help with this tangle of Scotts and Clarkes.

[lmgnz]

I have found 2 Patrick Scotts in the Griffiths Valuations. One at Mullaroe with 25 acres and one at Drumnagool with 50 acres. So probably two separate people.

Against that it appears that William Scott born 1868 at Drumnagool, son of John Scott and Margaret Clarke, was at Mullaroe in 1911 aged 42.

The William Scott at Mullaroe was the son of John Scott as evidence by his marriage to Lizzie Craven in 1913. However it is possible that the Scott farm at Mullaroe had become vacant and was purchased by William. William, Lizzie and their son John William Percy Scott, are all buried at Skreen.

[Elwyn Soutter]

I have found 2 Patrick Scotts in the Griffiths Valuations. One at Mullaroe with 25 acres and one at Drumnagool with 50 acres. So probably two separate people.

If you look carefully at Griffiths, the Patrick Scott on plot 2 Mullaroe wasn’t using the house, just the land. He had sublet the farmhouse (to Mark McDonnell). So Patrick didn’t live there, he just used the land. Whereas in Drumnagoal the Patrick there had a house and land, so probably did live there.

Going to the 1833 tithes for Skreen, there was a Patrick Scott farming in Dumnagoal but no Scott farm in Mullaroe. 

Mullaroe and Drumnagoal adjoin, so it’s likely/possible that Patrick was the tenant of the Drumnagoal farm and some time after 1833 acquired extra land and a house a few hundred yards away in Mullaroe. As he didn't need a second farmhouse, he sublet it. Possibly by 1911 the farmhouse had reverted to the Scott family.

The Valuation revision records in the Valuation Office in Dublin should record changes of tenant for each of these properties between 1857 and 1930. They are not all on-line yet but if you contact the Valuation office they may assist. (There might be a fee, not sure).

[Kiltaglassan]

Just adding to what Elwyn has said, and linking for others reading here's the townland of Drumnagoal with Mullaroe to the north.

https://www.townlands.ie/sligo/tireragh/skreen/skreen/drumnagoal/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3538438#map=12/54.2213/-8.7489

[Elwyn Soutter]

Re the Mullaroe property, in the 1901 census, house no 5 was this Reilly household:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Sligo/Toberpatrick_West/Mullaroe/1679070/

If you look at the “House & Building return form B1”, you’ll see they were renting from John Scott. So establishing the Scotts still leased/owned the property. I’d say the Reillys left for some reason between 1901 & 1911 and William Scott then moved in.

[lmgnz]

Hi Elwyn

Thank you for that insight. I had noted that property 2a at Mullaroe was sublet from Patrick Scott but thought maybe it was a second dwelling, as house was listed on the line above for Patrick (Land House & garden). I prefer your interpretation though I did think 75 acres was getting quite large.

Also I missed the Patrick Scott at Drunagoal in the Tithes. So went back and tried a different search method and found him.

I had found all the other Scotts in Skreen including Patrick at Carrowdurneen with 1 or 3 acres (or maybe 1.3 acres; my notes are not clear).

Also at Carrowdurneen are Robert and Archibald Scott jointly with 19 acres. Plus a couple of others, including widow Elinor with 14 acres. I will be moving on these Scotts  next. The Archibalds are of interest to me as my 2x gt grandfather Patrick Clarke of Carrownree had a brother Archibald b c1808. I do not actually know the name or surname of my Clarke 3x gt grandmother though she was married to William Clarke.

I don't think my Clarkes are in the Tithes though are in Griffiths. James Clarke son of William (Griffiths) is I believe the bachelor who died Gerib, 1885 aged 88. James left the farm to Patrick Clarkes oldest son William.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Imgnz,

Griffiths for Mullaroe has plot 2 – Patrick Scott with 25 acres, 3 roods, 0 perches, rented from Rev William Black. Described simply as “Land”. IE No house & no offices (outbuildings).

Below that on 2a you have Mark McDonnell, renting from Patrick Scott “House and gardens.” 1 rood and 15  perches (typical for a labourer. That was to grow his vegetables).

So that shows Patrick Scott using only the land on plot 2, and Mark McDonnell renting the house there from Patrick.  No sign of Patrick Scott living there at that date. To me the record is quite clear that Patrick Scott was not living in Mullaroe in 1857.

The tithes were a tax on land, used to support the Church of Ireland. Deeply unpopular and eventually abolished in the 1850s. But the point is they were not a census. They only listed folk with land. So labourers, shepherds, tradesmen,  servants, lodgers and anyone who did not have land was not listed. (A few perches to grow vegetables wouldn’t get you listed in the tithes). Since the majority of the population then were not farmers (most being labourers) it’s not unusual to find them in Griffiths but not in the tithes. Even Griffiths didn’t list everyone either. Properties of too low a value to be worth assessing were excluded, and obviously lodgers, servants and others living with someone else are all excluded.

To add a little extra confusion, the tithes were compiled in Irish acres (sometimes called Plantation measure) but Griffiths is in statute acres. You can use this link to convert one to the other:

https://www.convertunits.com/from/acre/to/acre+[Ireland]

That said, the tithes really only included land that could be used for tillage. Grazing land and so on was excluded, whereas it was included in Griffiths. It can therefore be hard to compare the two accurately.

[Kiltaglassan]

Also at Carrowdurneen are Robert and Archibald Scott jointly with 19 acres. Plus a couple of others, including widow Elinor with 14 acres. I will be moving on these Scotts  next.

Here is the tithe link for anyone who might be able to help you-

https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rs5/

[lmgnz]

Hi Elwyn

Thank for the correction. I had noted the house and garden beside #2 not #2a. My session in askaboutireland had timed out but I have now reopened it and checked again.

Getting back to the timeline it looks like Robert, son of Patrick was farming the 25 acres at Mullaroe in February 1853 when he married Mary Wallace at Easky, daughter of Jeremiah Wallace (brother of my 2x gt grandmother). Archy Scott was a witness.

The other witness was a Margaretta? Irwin. My other Sligo 2x gt grandmother, mother-in-law to Patrick Clarke and wife of Robert Leighton of Carrownree, was a Catherine Irwin. Which is  an example of why I am woking through all these relationships.

Jeremiah was probably already ill as he died in March 1853 and left his 143 acres at Doonalton divided between his two daughters Mary and Margery.

Robert Scott (widower) was 34 when he married Mary Scott in 1856 so he was born c1822 and it seems, an older brother of John Scott born c 1830.