Birth certificate for grand mother and her mother

[Twits]

Please could someone advise?

I am trying to find my grand mother and her mother's birth certificates.

Starting with my grand mother, I have got scanned coppies of her:
1) Death Notice
2) Death Certificate
2) Marriage certificate
3) Divorce order

Her name was Noreen Edith Clapham Davis (born Simmonds).
She was born at Graaff-Reneit, Cape Province in 1910.
Her ID number was 100815 0016 006.

Her mother was Florence Elizabeth Simmonds (born Langlands).
She was born circa 1884, either in Cork, Ireland or in the Cape Province (I am unable to ascertain).

 I have tried NAAIRS with no luck. Family Search has been very helpful but no birth certificates.

Can anybody suggest how I can my grand mothers reference number for NAAIRS so I can get a copy? And at the same time, confirm if her mother is in NAAIRS?

Thanks in advance.

[Twits]

Just to clarify, I am assuming that her birth certificate will be on NAAIRS because of her being born in 1910.

If that is incorrect, would I then be correct in assuming that the only way to get the certificate is through Department of Home Affairs?
If so, application form DHA -154 asks for ID numbers of both parents which I am unable to provide.

How would I go about getting them?

[Neale1961]

Hello Twits and welcome to RootsChat. 
While not a direct answer to your questions, hopefully this information will help you a little.
These following links for records will open if you are signed in (free to do so).

MARRIAGE of Florence Elizabeth LANGLANDS to Railton Francis SIMMONDS 19 Oct 1909 Muizenberg, Cape, Sth Africa.
Both were aged 25. He was a draper
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91R-99FZ-J?cc=2821281

Death of Florence Elizabeth LANGLANDS    7 July 1958 Johannesburg
Age 83 (born 15-1-1875) She is recorded as divorced. Id number is on this record.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6ZMZ-GTKG

Death for Rialton Francis SIMMONDS 5 Apr 1944 Port Elizabeth
Probate lists children
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG5W-KV3H
After he divorced Florence, he married 2 Oct 1928 to widow Amy Ellen Kingston Buissanne

[Neale1961]

Florence Elizabeth Simmonds (born Langlands) is mentioned on both her father’s and mother’s probate records ……

James LANGLANDS born in Ireland abt 1852 (parents John and Isabella); died 16th Jan 1913 Muizenberg, Cape, Sth Africa. Occupation – railway employee retired
His wife Ellen nee KELLY (married in Ireland abt 1875)
His probate lists his children:
•   John George LANGLANDS
•   Isabella Eileen HULME
•   Cecil James LANGLANDS
•   Florence Elizabeth SIMMONDS
•   Lewis William LANGLANDS
•   Greta Helen HAMILTON
•   Edith May LANGLANDS
•   Kathleen LANGLANDS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPW8-V5F5
and https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSC-QSFB
and https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/138419274/james-langlands


Ellen LANGLANDS (nee KELLY)   Died 26 march 1923 Johannesburg
Age 71 born Cork Ireland, Parents John and Margaret KELLY (Wises Distillery in Cork)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPKR-G4FH
and https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:71DY-ZZPZ

[Neale1961]

Records for the family in Ireland. (Again to open these links, you need to sign in and prove you are not a robot, but it is free)

Marriage of James LANGLANDS to Ellen KELLY -   28 Jan 1875 Cork Ireland
He was 23, bachelor, a clerk, son of John LANGLANDS a grocer
She was 22, spinster, daughter of John KELLY an engineer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11199/8104104.pdf

Children’s births (registrations that I could find online)
•   John George born 17 Feb 1876 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03062/2122526.pdf
•   Isabella born 10 March 1877 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105195.pdf
•   James Cecil born 28 Apr 1878 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02958/2083648.pdf
•   Annie Ethel born 2 Aug 1879 (she died in Cork in 1888)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02901/2062855.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06181/4767121.pdf
•   Louis Garneth William born 20 Aug 1882 (he died 21 Nov 1882 – 7 months)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02765/2016158.pdf
•   Lewis William born 13 Oct 1883 (twin)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02707/1996653.pdf
•   Margaret Hellen born 13 Oct 1883 (twin)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02707/1996653.pdf
•   Edith May born 6 Dec 1884 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02652/1977812.pdf
•   Kathleen born 8 Oct 1886 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02576/1952265.pdf

Unfortunately I could not find anything for your Florence Elizabeth. It may be that she was born before the marriage, and therefore she may have been registered in a different name.

[Dundee]

The probate lists them in order of birth which indicates that Florence was born in 1880/81. This means she was 28/29 when she married, not 25.

Debra 

[Twits]

Hello Twits and welcome to RootsChat. 
While not a direct answer to your questions, hopefully this information will help you a little.
These following links for records will open if you are signed in (free to do so).

MARRIAGE of Florence Elizabeth LANGLANDS to Railton Francis SIMMONDS 19 Oct 1909 Muizenberg, Cape, Sth Africa.
Both were aged 25. He was a draper
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91R-99FZ-J?cc=2821281

Death of Florence Elizabeth LANGLANDS    7 July 1958 Johannesburg
Age 83 (born 15-1-1875) She is recorded as divorced. Id number is on this record.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6ZMZ-GTKG

Death for Rialton Francis SIMMONDS 5 Apr 1944 Port Elizabeth
Probate lists children
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG5W-KV3H
After he divorced Florence, he married 2 Oct 1928 to widow Amy Ellen Kingston Buissanne

Hi Neale1961
Thank you for all the help.

The marriage between Railton and Florence is correct.
The mariage between Railton and Amy is also correct.
This I can prove.

I saw the Death Information Form for Florence previously but dismissed it because:
1) If she was divorced she would most likely have kept using her married name or possibly reverted to using her maiden name (Langlands). Where does Lang come from? Could it simply have been old age as there is no mention of dementia on the form? Could it have been misinterpretation of person filling in the form?
2) Her age does not corellate with her marriage certificate. Here it is 1875 whereas her marriage certificate shows as circa 1884. Again...could it have been age? Vanity?

Assuming this was her...any idea on how to use her ID number to gather further information to clarify this was indeed her?

[Twits]

Florence Elizabeth Simmonds (born Langlands) is mentioned on both her father’s and mother’s probate records ……

James LANGLANDS born in Ireland abt 1852 (parents John and Isabella); died 16th Jan 1913 Muizenberg, Cape, Sth Africa. Occupation – railway employee retired
His wife Ellen nee KELLY (married in Ireland abt 1875)
His probate lists his children:
•   John George LANGLANDS
•   Isabella Eileen HULME
•   Cecil James LANGLANDS
•   Florence Elizabeth SIMMONDS
•   Lewis William LANGLANDS
•   Greta Helen HAMILTON
•   Edith May LANGLANDS
•   Kathleen LANGLANDS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPW8-V5F5
and https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSC-QSFB
and https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/138419274/james-langlands


Ellen LANGLANDS (nee KELLY)   Died 26 march 1923 Johannesburg
Age 71 born Cork Ireland, Parents John and Margaret KELLY (Wises Distillery in Cork)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPKR-G4FH
and https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:71DY-ZZPZ

Hi again Neale1961

Thanks again. I already had this but looking at them again made me realise two things:

1) James and Ellen were Florence's parents. They were both born in Cork and moved to SA. They had 9 kids whilst still in Cork. 8 of them are reqistered as births in Ireland including 1 which died when she was 8 years old (born in 1879). Why then is there no record of Florence who was born in Cork circa 1884? There are births recorded before and after hers!

2) After James died in the Cape, Florence moved to Jo'burg with the kids. That death cirtificate for Florence Lang (Langlands) previously discussed showed her place of death as Jo'burg.

[Twits]

Records for the family in Ireland. (Again to open these links, you need to sign in and prove you are not a robot, but it is free)

Marriage of James LANGLANDS to Ellen KELLY -   28 Jan 1875 Cork Ireland
He was 23, bachelor, a clerk, son of John LANGLANDS a grocer
She was 22, spinster, daughter of John KELLY an engineer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11199/8104104.pdf

Children’s births (registrations that I could find online)
•   John George born 17 Feb 1876 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03062/2122526.pdf
•   Isabella born 10 March 1877 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105195.pdf
•   James Cecil born 28 Apr 1878 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02958/2083648.pdf
•   Annie Ethel born 2 Aug 1879 (she died in Cork in 1888)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02901/2062855.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06181/4767121.pdf
•   Louis Garneth William born 20 Aug 1882 (he died 21 Nov 1882 – 7 months)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02765/2016158.pdf
•   Lewis William born 13 Oct 1883 (twin)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02707/1996653.pdf
•   Margaret Hellen born 13 Oct 1883 (twin)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02707/1996653.pdf
•   Edith May born 6 Dec 1884 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02652/1977812.pdf
•   Kathleen born 8 Oct 1886 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02576/1952265.pdf

Unfortunately I could not find anything for your Florence Elizabeth. It may be that she was born before the marriage, and therefore she may have been registered in a different name.

Thanks Neale1961.
I have looked at Irishgeneology.ie before but not in enough depth to get all the certificates like you have just provided.

I previously stated 9 kids. Thanks to your reasearch it looks like 11 kids.

Still no mention of Florence.