What happened to Joshua Knowles?

[liverpoolgenealogy]

Having a bit of trouble finding a death record here. Can anyone help?

Joshua Knowles married Elizabeth Rainford on 14 January 1817 at St. Anne's, Liverpool.
Joshua Knowles, Butcher of this Parish, Elizabeth Rainford, a minor, with consent of John Rainford.

They had a few children together:

St. Peter's, Liverpool:
7 April 1817, Jane Knowles (Joshua and Elizabeth, residence Byrom St. father's occupation: butcher)
12 April 1819, Mary Knowles (Joshua and Elizabeth, residence Byrom St. father's occupation: butcher)
23 March 1836, Thomas Knowles (Joshua and Elizabeth, residence Henry Edward St. father's occupation: butcher)
23 March 1836, Elizabeth Knowles (Joshua and Elizabeth, residence Henry Edward St. father's occupation: butcher)

St. Stephen's, Liverpool:
16 Dec 1833, Joshua Knowles (Joshua and Elizabeth, residence Hunter St. father's occupation: butcher) - Buried on 1 Jan 1834

He also appears in Gore's Directory, 1821. Knowles, Joshua, butcher, 5 Byrom Street,

I initially thought he died in June 1834, as there is a burial record (Necropolis, Low Hill Cemetery, Liverpool: 2 July 1834, Joshua Knowles, aged 42, of Hunter Street).

But if he and Elizabeth had twins in 1836, this couldn't be the correct record, unless they were illegitimate and she tried to pass them as legitimate, but I doubt that. I can't find any matches on the GRO death index, so that would suggest a death between March 1836–June 1837, but I can't find anything.

I haven't found an 1841 census entry for the family. Their daughter Jane, married James Mercer in February 1835, and appears on the 1841 census with him.

There is an 1851 census entry for Elizabeth, though:
42 Bolton Street, Liverpool
Charlotte Grove      Head   Unmarried   23   Lodging Keeper                              Shropshire
Charlotte Whitehead   Visitor   Unmarried   24   –                                 Nottingham
Agnes Wills      Visitor   Unmarried   25   –                                 Ireland
Catherine Hughes   Visitor   Unmarried   21    –                                 Liverpool
Elizabeth Knowles   Servant   Widow       54   Formerly Butcher’s wife      Lincoln
Catherine Cleary   Servant   Married   22   House servant                      Ireland

Elizabeth died in June 1852 and the certificates states she was the widow of Joshua Knowles, Butcher, and that she died in Liverpool.

Finding a death for Joshua would be a good result, as well as an 1841 census entry for the family! Any help is always much appreciated! 

[maddys52]

Doesn't really help, but for interest, there is this marriage notice:

"Same day, Mr. Joshua Knowles, butcher, to Miss Rainford, daughter of Mr. John Rainford, butcher, all of Liverpool."

"Same day" is "Tuesday last" ie 14 Jan 1817
Saturday,  Jan. 18, 1817
Publication: Lancaster Gazetter

[mckha489]

Have you later evidence to show the 1836 baptisms were of children born about then? 
It’s just it seems a very large gap between them and the previous two.
It is possible they are not twins, but just hadn’t been baptised earlier. In which case it would be fine for the 1834 burial to be your man.

[maddys52]

Yes, I agree mckha, quite possible.


Not sure how many KNOWLES were butchers in Liverpool. There is this article in 1851 which mentions a witness, a "young man named Briggs, assistant to Mr. Knowles, butcher" 
Lancaster Gazette 08 November 1851

Modified to add:
Looking at the parish register and the bishop's transcript - no other information given about birth dates or late baptisms for Thomas and Elizabeth.

[garstonite]

You have missed out James Knowles

Baptism: 7 Apr 1817 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Jane Knowles - D of Joshua Knowles & Elizabeth
    Abode: Byrom St
    Occupation: Butcher
    Baptised by: T. H. Heathcote Curate
    Register: Baptisms 1816 - 1818, Page 81, Entry 539
    Source: LDS film 1658119
Baptism: 12 Apr 1819 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Mary Knowles - [Child] of Joshua Knowles & Elizabeth
    Abode: Byrom St
    Occupation: Butcher
    Baptised by: J. Pulford Curate
    Register: Baptisms 1818 - 1819, Page 298, Entry 584
    Source: LDS Film 1656378
Baptism: 27 Sep 1829 Christ Church, Hunter Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
James Knowles - Son of Joshua Knowles & Mary
    Abode: Brownhills Court
    Occupation: Butcher
    Baptised by: Jn. R. Tetlow A. M.
    Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1851, Page 57, Entry 453
    Source: LDS Film 1656153
Baptism: 23 Mar 1836 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Knowles - [Child] of Joshua Knowles & Elizabeth
    Abode: Henry Edward St.
    Occupation: Butcher
    Baptised by: Tho. Halton, Curate
    Register: Baptisms 1835 - 1836, Page 337, Entry 2693
    Source: LDS Film 1656421 (and 1656422)
Baptism: 23 Mar 1836 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Knowles - [Child] of Joshua Knowles & Elizabeth
    Abode: Henry Edward St.
    Occupation: Butcher
    Baptised by: Tho. Halton, Curate
    Register: Baptisms 1835 - 1836, Page 337, Entry 2694
    Source: LDS Film 1656421 (and 1656422 )
..........................................................................
did you notice this on Elizabeth and Thomas ??
Source: LDS Film 1656421 (and 1656422) - 2 seperate numbers - usually twins are mentioned on a baptism record -

Burial: 2 Jul 1834 Low Hill Cemetery, Everton, Lancashire, England
Joshua Knowles -
    Age: 42
    Abode: Hunter Street
    Grave: 7788
    Cause of Death: Rupt. Of B. Vessl.
    Buried by: John Bruce
..............I live in Liverpool about 8 miles from this grave - they are now Gardens of rememberance - but - some graves are still visible
this has to be your Joshuas death - we know he lived in Brownhills Court ,Hunter Street in 1829 ..and would think he was still there when he died 5 years later - so - was he ill and they couldn't afford to baptise the last 2 between 1830 and 1834 - or are the last 2 illegitimate ??  lets see if we can find a marriage for Elizabeth or Thomas and see who the bride / grooms father is ??

....................................................................................

Having found this - I think it would suggest that Thomas and Elizabeth were born between 1830 and 1834 - and were baptised later


Marriage: 12 Jul 1864 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Knowles - Full, Blockmaker, Widower, Gill St.
Catherine Franks - Full, Spinster, Gill St.
    Groom's Father: Joshua Knowles, Butcher
    Bride's Father: William Franks, Paper Hanger
    Witness: John Underwood; Mary Davidson, (X)

[trish1120]

Excellent work.

 1881 Thomas is born c 1832 Liverpool, occp Blockmaker

[trish1120]

1861 born c 1828
1st Marriage was to Hannah MUTCH :   4 Sep 1853 Father Joshau a Butcher

[trish1120]

1851 he is with his sister Mary now Mrs Hessefield (Hurstfield) born c 1814 Liverpool

1881 Mary seems to be Knowles again

But there are Hurstfields with her (Samuel who seems to be the Son of Samuel her Nephew in 1851 Census)


EDIT, sorry in the middle of cooking so a little distracted!

[liverpoolgenealogy]

Doesn't really help, but for interest, there is this marriage notice:

"Same day, Mr. Joshua Knowles, butcher, to Miss Rainford, daughter of Mr. John Rainford, butcher, all of Liverpool."

"Same day" is "Tuesday last" ie 14 Jan 1817
Saturday,  Jan. 18, 1817
Publication: Lancaster Gazetter

Thank you for posting this! Not many of my ancestors have their marriage notices printed in the newspapers (most were very poor, so that's probably why!)