When & Where did John Smith marry a Mary?

[alexreg]

Hi Sue,

Glad this all interests you. Your summary is quite correct – that's my working theory at least. Well, Thomas Smith actually married Margaret Langley in 1731 (not 1733), but that matters little. I'd also add that Ann/Nancy Linacre and Martha Linacre were first cousins by my reckoning, in case you missed that bit.

In response to your questions:
- Thomas Smith married Sue Ciknes on 11 Apr 1746 at Bidston church, following the burial of his first wife Margaret on 22 Jun 1745 at Heswall church.
- I've not yet done a thorough study of DNA matches on my Smith side, though I'll try to have another look soon. Of course, finding DNA matches this far back (i.e. finding a match with someone who's descended from a different child of Robert) is hampered both by the tiny amounts of DNA shared from common ancestors from many generations ago, and by the lack of accurate family trees going back so far in time. Still, it may be possible, with a bit of luck and effort. Please let me know if you find any too.
- Our John Smith's place of residence is not given in either of his two marriage records, as was unfortunately common during that period. Place of *birth* is never (or almost never) stated in my experience. Usually it's safe to assume that both bride and groom (certainly the bride) were resident in the parish at the time, unless the record states otherwise, but occasionally they came from a neighbouring parish and the priests sometimes even took liberties with banns. Sorry if I'm saying something you already know. Anyway, it's not clear whether John Smith was already living and working in Bebington at the point he married Catherine Inglefield, but certainly he and his second wife Mary Moss (née Yearsley) were both living in Bebington when they married, both for the second time. My guess would be that John Smith, being a farm labourer who moved about for work, was already living in Bebington when he met Catherine Inglefield, but it's very possible their marriage record simply fails to state that he was living in Heswall parish then.

Alex

[timmis1]

Hi Alex

Just had a read of your post on the Linacres, I like it, there is nothing like a good elopement in one`s family history.
Perhaps it’s a family tradition as my gg grandmother Emma Roberts went off to St Nicolas in Liverpool in 1862 to marry Jonathan Smith(b1841) the g  grandson of our Richard Smith(b1755).
I gather that was a place for elopements.
She gave birth to their first child a short while afterwards(within a day or two), so perhaps that was the reason Jonathan`s family may have felt that she had forced is hand.
Yes I had missed the bit about Nancy & Martha being 1st cousins.
Thanks for answering my other questions I was just curious. I thought you would have said if the place of residence for John`s marriages had been given, quite frustrating that they were not filled in.
Sadly I have not done my DNA, however it may not prove a match as it may be doubtful that Emma  Roberts who married Johnathan Smith in 1862  was not actually living with him when she gave birth to her daughter Emma Smith in Bury 1869. I think their marriage had broke down, as he marries again! Obviously bigamously.
I am also not quite sure how DNA works on Ancestry, I will have to have a look on the their site.
It would be great if anyone else has something to add.
Sue

[DCB]

I had pencilled in the marriage of Daniel to Margaret Harrison, although the location was some distance away.

I have aslo pencilled in the the baptism of Daniel Linacre at West Kirby on 1st January 1729, son of William, although the burial record suggests an earlier birth. Like that of Margaret, it may not be correct, although he may have been baptised later than his birth.

There is also Elizabeth on 17th August 1722, Daughter of William and Anne, together with the marriage of William Linaker to Ann Williams in August 1722. William buried on 21st November 1774

I don't have any DNA matches to Harrisons, although probably to far back to have sufficient levels.

I am still going through all of the recent posts, and will let you know if I find anything more.

Also a William, son of William Linacre of Great Meolse, at West Kirby on 10th December 1730, who might be the one buried in 1774, and Thomas on 4th Jan 1723/4.

David

[alexreg]

Hi Alex

Just had a read of your post on the Linacres, I like it, there is nothing like a good elopement in one`s family history.
Perhaps it’s a family tradition as my gg grandmother Emma Roberts went off to St Nicolas in Liverpool in 1862 to marry Jonathan Smith(b1841) the g  grandson of our Richard Smith(b1755).
I gather that was a place for elopements.
She gave birth to their first child a short while afterwards(within a day or two), so perhaps that was the reason Jonathan`s family may have felt that she had forced is hand.
Yes I had missed the bit about Nancy & Martha being 1st cousins.
Thanks for answering my other questions I was just curious. I thought you would have said if the place of residence for John`s marriages had been given, quite frustrating that they were not filled in.
Sadly I have not done my DNA, however it may not prove a match as it may be doubtful that Emma  Roberts who married Johnathan Smith in 1862  was not actually living with him when she gave birth to her daughter Emma Smith in Bury 1869. I think their marriage had broke down, as he marries again! Obviously bigamously.
I am also not quite sure how DNA works on Ancestry, I will have to have a look on the their site.
It would be great if anyone else has something to add.
Sue

Hi Sue,

Yes, elopements certainly make for interesting stories! In this case, it's just conjecture on my part, though it would surely make sense, and I can't think of another good explanation... although there may well be one.

I too have an English ancestor whose marriage evidently broke down, after which both he and his wife moved to different towns and remarried bigamously. I'm inclined to sympathy, as divorce required an Act of Parliament in those days, and was therefore only feasible for the rich and prestigious. That was his second wife. His first wife had died soon after they married, and his third wife (my ancestor) was a granddaughter of Richard Smith & Nancy Linacre. At least that one seems to have been happy and successful!

Do check out AncestryDNA – I recommend it. I don't think there's a sale on at the moment, but I (or someone else) could always send a referral for a 15% discount. However, as David and I have mentioned, once you get to the mid 1700s and beyond, the chances of finding DNA matches from those ancestors becomes very slim, though not impossible. It's been a great resource for me regardless.

Alex

[alexreg]

I had pencilled in the marriage of Daniel to Margaret Harrison, although the location was some distance away.

I have aslo pencilled in the the baptism of Daniel Linacre at West Kirby on 1st January 1729, son of William, although the burial record suggests an earlier birth. Like that of Margaret, it may not be correct, although he may have been baptised later than his birth.

There is also Elizabeth on 17th August 1722, Daughter of William and Anne, together with the marriage of William Linaker to Ann Williams in August 1722. William buried on 21st November 1774

I don't have any DNA matches to Harrisons, although probably to far back to have sufficient levels.

I am still going through all of the recent posts, and will let you know if I find anything more.

Also a William, son of William Linacre of Great Meolse, at West Kirby on 10th December 1730, who might be the one buried in 1774, and Thomas on 4th Jan 1723/4.

David

Hi David,

Indeed, I think I'd also seen that marriage a few years ago and not really investigated it, but now that I consider how rare a name Daniel Linacre would have been, and the lack of presence of the surname in that area, I'm personally very confident they're our couple. Too many coincidences otherwise. The much bigger doubt is whether the Margaret Harrison is the one baptised 01 Nov 1721 at Woodchurch. There's no real candidate in the Great Budworth area, at least... whereas Arrowe is only some 4 miles from Great Meols.

You're of course right that baptisms were occasionally performed well after the birth, although the overwhelmingly common case would have been to baptise the child within a few days of birth, I think. Daniel's burial record implies he was born about 1725, which is close enough to 1729 that I'm not troubled by this identification. The West Kirby parish records are complete from 1690 to 1732, from what I can tell. It would also make sense that Daniel's (eldest?) daughter Ann/Nancy Linacre was named after his mother, Ann Williams. Incidentally, I have no idea about when/where she was baptised, since the only Williams family in West Kirby at the time was that of Peter Williams, and she evidently wasn't his daughter (or at least not from his time living in West Kirby). My suspicion is that she was baptised at the nearby church of Upton (Overchurch), since records for that church don't survive for this period. There were also families of John and Edward Williams in Bidston parish, specifically in Woodside, Birkenhead and Claughton, so a little further than Upton.

Just to clarify, you mean that the William Linacre buried 21 Nov 1774 at West Kirby was the father, born 1702, right? Because, Ann, his wife (described as such) was buried 09 Feb 1773 at West Kirby. Their son William seems to have been baptised 10 Dec 1730 and buried just four days later. The burial records are not on FindMyPast for some reason, only FamilySearch.

Look forward to hearing any other thoughts you have.

[alexreg]

Sorry to throw more info at you, but I should also mention that I did a bit of digging into the origins of Margery Holt, the wife of Robert Smith of West Kirby / Heswall and the purported mother of our John Smith. I find no evidence of any Holt's in the vicinity of West Kirby or neighbouring parishes. The only Margery Holt I can find in the right timeframe is the one baptised 19 Feb 1688/9 [O.S./N.S.] at Ince, the daughter of John Holt (d. 1718) and Margery Billinge (d. 1693). This is certainly about the birth year I'd expect considering Robert Smith was born 1680 and Robert and Margery married in 1715. Would be interesting to see if anyone has DNA evidence to support this idea, as Ince is good few miles (though not excessively far) from West Kirby.

[DCB]

I have found the burial of Anne Linacre on FindMyPast, but it isn't indexed.
The image seems to show that husband, William, was a Fisherman of Great Meols.

William's is indexed, and Anne's is on page 49 of the filmstrip.

A lot of trees have William as the son of Thomas Linacre, and Mary Hill, of Great Meolse, baptised on 6th September 1702.

However, they also have his burial as 1728, which can't be correct, and Anne's death as 1782, also not correct.

David

[alexreg]

I have found the burial of Anne Linacre on FindMyPast, but it isn't indexed.
The image seems to show that husband, William, was a Fisherman of Great Meols.

William's is indexed, and Anne's is on page 49 of the filmstrip.

A lot of trees have William as the son of Thomas Linacre, and Mary Hill, of Great Meolse, baptised on 6th September 1702.

However, they also have his burial as 1728, which can't be correct, and Anne's death as 1782, also not correct.

David

Indeed, I should have said the (early) burial records are not indexed/searchable on FindMyPast, though the images are very much present – for the earlier years often on the same pages as the baptisms and marriages.

I agree those trees can't be correct. I don't even see a burial record for a William Linacre in 1728. The creators/copiers of those trees are also mistaken about the parents of William Linacre, I'm pretty sure. Thomas Linacre 'of West Kirby, seaman' and Mary Hill 'of Wallasy' were married by licence on 12 Sep 1698. Mary 'wife of Thomas Linacre' is buried 04 Aug 1719, with location given as West Kirby – this is almost surely Mary Hill.

One can also find baptism records for children of a Thomas Linacre of Little Meols, whom I believe is another of the same name. His wife was Ellen 'of Little Meols', buried in 1726. There's a marriage record for Thomas Linacre and Ellen Milner dated 30 Dec 1697 at West Kirby church.

On the other hand, there are children of what seems to be a third Thomas Linacre, this one of Great Meols, baptised between 1702 to 1712. You've already mentioned them: William, Henry, Paul, and Thomas. What's more, there are two baptisms (I forget which) only a few months apart, one with father Thomas Linacre of Little Meols, the other with father Thomas Linacre of Great Meols. We should therefore conclude there were three Thomas Linacre's living in the parish at this time, one of West Kirby itself, one of Little Meols, and one of Great Meols. Our line of Linacre ancestors seem to be exclusively linked to Great Meols, at least until the late 1700s, and there's only a single baptism of a William in any case.

I'm afraid, however, that I've been struggling to find the burial records for these three Thomas Linacre's. Maybe the FamilySearch index isn't perfect? The only record for a Thomas Linacre that isn't a child (i.e., described as son of X Linacre) is the one who was buried 24 Oct 1728 and described as being of West Kirby, husbandman. This is probably the first of the three, husband of Mary Hill, though the change of occupation is a little curious. The better news is that I've found a burial record dated 24 Sep 1731 for Alice Linacre, widow, of Great Meols, whom I think would be the wife of our Thomas Linacre and the mother of William. I've not found their marriage record however.

Do please let me know if you have more luck than me finding our Thomas's burial record. Perhaps with a careful manual search.

[DCB]

The only two I can find, other than 1728, at West Kirby are:-

Thomas Linekar, Yeoman, 29th December 1783 of West Kirby

Thomas Linekar, Yeoman, 9th July 1815 of Great Meolse, b 1722
Presumed husband of Elizabeth Shaw

David