Author Topic: Problems accessing service records transferred from MoD to National Archives  (Read 3836 times)

Offline degenerate

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Re: Problems accessing service records transferred from MoD to National Archives
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 21 January 23 17:06 GMT (UK) »
Related, if the TNA has a 115-years-after-death rule, do you know why they have said that all the information in the service record is exempt until 2037? My great-uncle was born in December 1910, so 115 years from then would be 2025 - not 2037. Am I missing something?

The rule is definitely 115-years after date of birth.

I can only attempt some guesses; they looked at the record and saw something that pushes the timeline, they've looked at the wrong record or someone at TNA doesn't understand the rules.

It is certainly worth a query.
 
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Offline elfinblues

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Re: Problems accessing service records transferred from MoD to National Archives
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 21 January 23 17:23 GMT (UK) »
Thank you again - everyone. In that case, I will go ahead and try. I guess I have nothing to lose.

Assuming that I will be unsuccessful, does anyone know if there is any other way to at least pinpoint which units my great-uncle served with, and where? The only two clues that we have about his entire service are, firstly, a single photograph in which he is wearing the uniform of the Royal Scots Fusiliers. Also, there is an entry in the British Army Casualty Lists that we think is him - that gives us potential service and regiment numbers and an injury (11th RSF and wounded in NW Europe 22/10/44), but I need some document that includes his address or a named relative to confirm that I have the right person. If I am sure of that, then it might be possible to work out what he *might* have done via the war diaries.  Without the service record, I suspect that's about as much as I'm going to be able to do.

Apologies to all the experts if I'm naiive in my hopes.

Offline Andy J2022

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Re: Problems accessing service records transferred from MoD to National Archives
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 21 January 23 18:30 GMT (UK) »

The right to access other people's data in a governmental record context comes from FoI as you say but the TNA have clearly cited the "breach of confidence" exception as their concern. This is broader than (but includes) medical records and data that would otherwise have been in the the scope of GDPR were the data subject still alive. The obligation of confidence could still remain because it could relate to another party.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the legal concept of confidence and in no way do I wish to sound patronising, but I do think it is worth exploring, if only because someone at TNA has decided that the phrase breach of confidence sounds appropriate.
Quote
The three traditional requirements of the cause of action for breach of confidence were identified by Mr Justice Megarry in Coco v A N Clark (Engineers) Ltd (1968) in the following terms:

    "In my judgment, three elements are normally required if, apart from contract, a case of breach of confidence is to succeed. First, the information itself, in the words of Lord Greene, Master of the Rolls in the Saltman case, must "have the necessary quality of confidence about it." Secondly, that information must have been imparted in circumstances importing an obligation of confidence. Thirdly, there must be an unauthorised use of that information to the detriment of the party communicating it".
Let's just consider what is likely to be found in a (deceased) serviceman's records: his date and place of birth; probably his next of kin details, his personal number, details of his marriage and any children, his physical measurements, his branch of the service, his ranks and dates he attained them, his trade qualifications, the courses he attended, his postings, his disciplinary record, his pay and allowances, his leave record, awards of medals and decorations, his work performance assessments (AFB 106 and AFB 2047 or 2048 in the case of the Army), his date of discharge or death in service, and any pension details. This list is not exhaustive but covers many of the typical types of information involved. Very few of those pieces of data will have been given by the data subject to the authority concerned, fewer still will have been provided 'in confidence' meaning that the person receiving the information falls into a special category of people bound by confidence. That is not deny that most, if not all, of those items would constitute personal data for the purpose of GDPR and would thus need to be protected to conform with the old 7th Data Protection Principle; however as we know that protection falls away once the person has died.

The remainder of the data (promotion dates, courses, postings etc) are data generated by the authority and in these cases no duty of confidence is owed to the subject, outside of the GDPR rules. In other words since the MOD owns the item of data, it can determine whether there is any quality of confidence which attaches to it. If anything, the duty is often reversed and the serviceman owes a duty of confidence (under section 2 of the Official Secrets Act 1911*) to his employer not to divulge anything he learns in the course of his service. This is a largely an academic point and wouldn't in fact have covered such things as promotions or trade qualifications, but it might include some postings and specific employments, especially in wartime.

Since the average genealogist will probably already know the serviceman's date and place of birth (or can at least get it from elsewhere) along with details of the next of kin, marriages and children, that leaves almost nothing in a serviceman's record for which it can reasonably be said that the government department owes a duty of confidence to the individual serviceman.   

And in any case, even if a plausible case for breach of confidence could be found, the only person who could pursue a civil claim would be the person who suffered the detriment; however since by definition he is dead, that is a nonexistent issue. 


* Section OSA 1911 was repealed by the Official Secrets Act 1989.

Offline arthurk

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Re: Problems accessing service records transferred from MoD to National Archives
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 21 January 23 20:07 GMT (UK) »
Andy - as well as the items you've mentioned, service records very often include medical details such as injuries or illnesses. I think I read a comment about this question recently which pointed out that it was specifically these medical issues which were preventing the release of information until birth +115 years.

There might have been a hint that if the records contained no medical information they could be released earlier, or that all records would be available but subject to medical redactions until birth +115. I've no idea whether this is actually the case - it would obviously be much easier for them to impose a blanket policy for all records.


Offline Andy J2022

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Re: Problems accessing service records transferred from MoD to National Archives
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 21 January 23 22:07 GMT (UK) »
Sorry, arthurk, I should have made it clear I was carrying on from my previous posting in which I had already put medical information to one side because I think we all recognise that whether in the military or civilian context, medical information is very rarely going to be made available.  Yes, you are right that in an earlier posting degenerate quoted a statement from TNA in which it was said that "they [the personal records] naturally contain a range of personal data including medical information. To protect the information in these records, closure will apply until 115 years past the date of birth of the individual."
Someone else then said why can't this information be redacted as it usually is when the records are supplied direct from the MOD. I agree with that point. I suspect that TNA possibly don't have enough staff to be able to cope with redactions and are just applying this blanket 115 year rule to avoid the issue. This is a disappointing outcome. I intend to raise the issue with TNA's User Advisory Group Committee if only so we get some official confirmation of the way ahead.

Offline degenerate

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Re: Problems accessing service records transferred from MoD to National Archives
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 21 January 23 22:14 GMT (UK) »
I'm not sure how familiar you are with the legal concept of confidence and in no way do I wish to sound patronising, but I do think it is worth exploring,

Explore all you like but how about addressing the point I made earlier?  The potential duty of confidence owed by the MOD is to a third-party and the risk is that the relevant confidential information could have ended up on a service record, particularly in relation to health data. It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to see how this might happen in theory and case law shows that it can in practice.

If you are confident of your zero-risk legal analysis you should challenge the MOD & TNA agreement.
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Offline degenerate

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Re: Problems accessing service records transferred from MoD to National Archives
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 21 January 23 22:24 GMT (UK) »
I suspect that TNA possibly don't have enough staff to be able to cope with redactions and are just applying this blanket 115 year rule to avoid the issue.

Exactly, which is why I made the very same point earlier. Blanket rules are a result of resource constraints and the time limit applied is a result of the risk analysis (which would have been agreed by the MOD and TNA with full legal advice from both sides). 
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Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Problems accessing service records transferred from MoD to National Archives
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 22 January 23 00:05 GMT (UK) »
Obviously not alone re other WW 2 records and the holder was helpful initially.

But eventually tripped over an EU rule some years ago, due to the possibility of one or two mentioned in a further release might still be alive.

Offline elfinblues

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Re: Problems accessing service records transferred from MoD to National Archives
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 14 March 23 22:52 GMT (UK) »
Hello again everyone. Just a quick update for anyone who is interested that I have now written again to the TNA, not exactly to complain but to express my point of view that surely a redacted version of the record I seek must be achievable. I can only try. I have nothing to lose in doing so. I will let you know what response I get.

Assuming that I will again be unsuccessful, does anyone know if there is any other way to at least pinpoint which units my great-uncle served with, and where? The only two clues that I have about his entire service are, firstly, a single photograph in which he is wearing the uniform of the Royal Scots Fusiliers. Also, there is an entry in the British Army Casualty Lists that I think is him - that gives us potential service and regiment numbers and an injury (11th RSF and wounded in NW Europe 22/10/44), but I need some document that includes his address or a named relative to confirm that I have the right person. If I am sure of that, then it might be possible to work out what he did via the war diaries.  Without the service record, I suspect that's about as much as I'm going to be able to do. Apologies again to all the experts if I'm naiive in my hopes.