Robert Service Dunsilly

[Sue Service]

Hi, I am trying to find more information about Robert Service Sr. Dunsilly, Antrim born abt. 1786, died 1871.   
He was the father of Mary b. 1817 unmarried, Alexander b. 1824 m. Jane Toner , Robert Jr. b. 1833 unmarried, Jane b. 1834 m. Robert Stirret, David b. 1837, m. Elizabeth Stirrett.
I have been unable to find any info on who his wife/wives might have been. 
Any help would be so appreciated.  I have hit a wall.
Sue

[Elwyn Soutter]

Sue,

I don’t see a death of anyone named Service in the Dunsilly area 1864 of an age to be Robert’s wife. Death registration started in 1864 so it’s probably safe to assume she died pre 1864.

I assume the family was Presbyterian:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shilvodan/Dunsilly/916571/

Presbyterians generally don’t keep burial records so finding a pre 1864 death can be hard going unless there’s a gravestone. Have you checked for gravestones?  Do you know which church they attended? I would guess it was Mill Row (Antrim 1st Presbyterian). Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church and I note that Jane married in Mill Row.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1859/09561/5466305.pdf

The good news is that Antrim 1st has some of the oldest records in Ireland. They go back to the 1600s. There’s a copy in PRONI. So if you check their baptism records for 1817 to 1837 you may well get Robert’s wife’s name.  You might also find his marriage but that would depend on whether his bride also attended that church. (If you can’t get to PRONI in person you might need to hire a researcher).

Robert’s death certificate says he was a farmer but I note that in 1859 Jane gave his occupation as weaver, so he was probably at the most a small farmer. Not all small farmers could afford a gravestone. Griffiths Valuation for Dunsilly (1862) shows Robert on plot 29b which was a labourer/weaver’s cottage on Andrew Fletcher’s farm. So he doesn’t appear to have been a farmer then. He was still at that same location when he died so I am not sure where the farmer occupation comes from. Possibly son Robert “promoted” him, or perhaps he had some land nearby. His cottage was just at the edge of what is now the M22 motorway. On the Dunsilly Rd. It’s long demolished I am afraid.

The Fletcher farm was adjacent to the Stirrett farm so those marriages look to be classic “married the boy/ girl next door” arrangements.

[Kiltaglassan]

Welcome to RootsChat 

In addition to Elwyn's information here's the link to Alexander Service and his marriage to Jane Tonar - 10 December 1851
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1851/09400/5405024.pdf

Both groom and bride living in the townland of Potterswalls.
https://www.townlands.ie/antrim/antrim-upper/antrim/antrim-rural/potterswalls/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4189493#map=13/54.7329/-6.2244

Father Robert Service described as a labourer.

[lmgnz]

The two Stirret spouses  are I think related to me as their parents were Samuel Stirret and Jane Fletcher. Jane was the daughter of Andrew Fletcher and Jane Maxwell and according to a DNA match, Jane Maxwell was the sister of my 4x gt grandmother Martha Maxwell (of Dunsilly). So I have the Stirrets in in my Ancestry tree.

I can see at least one  tree which has Robert Service and siblings as born in  Stirlingshire Scotland, to parents Alexander Service (1781-1836) and Isabella McClay (1781-1818). I cannot verfiy any of that but it might be a place to look.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Yes, I’d be careful about that Scottish information. Check and see what the source is. These links often come from Ancestry hints rather than from firm evidence. Scottish records tend to be better and go back further than Irish records and the names of course are very similar because most of the Presbyterians in Antrim did originate in Scotland at one time, so folk seem to snap up these hints when they shouldn’t.  And many of the records in Ireland are not on-line but folk don’t seem to acknowledge this. They search on Familysearch or Ancestry and other similar sites. They seem to say “Well this is the only family coming up in my searches. Therefore they must be mine.”).

The major wave of a Scottish migration to Antrim and elsewhere in Ireland was in the 1600s. By the 1700s & 1800s many Scots were leaving again due to dissatisfaction with life in Ireland and the offer of better opportunities in North America and elsewhere. So whilst some Scots probably did arrive in the 1700s they would very much be going against the general flow out of the country.

I’d get someone to check the Mill Row records. I wouldn’t be surprised to find the family in the Dunsilly general area back towards the 1700s and earlier.

[Sue Service]

Elwyn,
Thank you so much for the replies. 
Robert's son, Alexander was my 3rd great grand dad and I had found his marriage record along with the baptisms of his children.  Yes, they were Presbyterian and were baptised at Mill Row. 
The information I have found about Robert is that he was a linen weaver, as was his Jr.
Alexander was an "inn keeper" in Antrim town proper.  I am all the way in Oregon, USA and here we would consider an Inn to be a motel, is that the same in Ireland or could it also be referring to a pub?
I found a will for Alexander showing he died in 1869.  The will mentions all of his children but no mention of his wife, Jane Tonar.  It states that Robert Jr. was the custodian of his kids.  This leads me to assume that Jane had already died but I have been unable to find a death record for her.  Their last child together, Elizabeth,  was born in 1868 so it seems she would have died between 1868 and 1869 when her Husband Alexander died.
I have been able to find very little about Jane Tonar.  I have the marriage record that shows her dad's name as Torrens Tonar but when searching for him I find the name "Terrence" more often.  I also find that this surname is found in Catholic records more often.  Was it common for Catholic's and Presbyterians to marry in the 1800's?

You mentioned checking Mill Row records, is there a way for me to do that online or would it need to be in person?  Ireland is on my bucket list but not until retirement in a couple of years. 

Well, thank you again so much for the information. 
My life keeps me pretty busy and I do not get online too often to field replies but I so much appreciate the help.
Sue

[lmgnz]

Hi Sue, I totally agree with what Elwyn said about not trusting Ancestry trees. When I searched for more trees than offered up in the hints, nearly all of them had Robert Service of Dunsilly born 1817 and many had him as the son of Alexander b 1781. So they obviously did not have or believe Robert's age at death. Not that that age is necessarily very accurate when the person is getting older, but I think his son Robert would have a reasonable idea.

I do not think the Mill Row records are online but if they are I sure would like to know as that is not only where my Dunsilly famlies are recored but where  the family of my  Graham 2x gt grandparents were baptised.

A distant cousin of mine  (we share my 4x gt grandfather Thomas Gawn whose 2nd wife was Martha Maxwell) extracted some of the records as related our Gawn family of Dunsilly from the Presbyterian Historical Society as below.

FIRST ANTRIM PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH (MILLROW)            
Reverend Magill's Ledger (c. 1820-1839)            
Held in PHSI            

Whereas you could hire someone to look at the PRONI records I am not sure about the PHSI. I am even further from these places than you are

[Elwyn Soutter]

Sue,

An Inn was not the same as a motel.  An Inn offered food and accommodation and stabling for horses. Long distance coaches often changed horses at an Inn.  It was very much like a hotel but the Inn element was about horse stabling and changing facilities. There used to be a couple of Inns/hotels in the Main Street in Antrim (I live nearby). Both are gone now with modernization. However Alexander was listed in the 1861 street directory as a publican in the Main St:

https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/PT_Apage495.htm

(A publican is someone who runs a pub).

I think the records for Mill Row are not on-line. If you are unable to go to PRONI yourself, you could employ a researcher. Researchers in the PRONI area: http://sgni.net

You could try the PHSI. They have the records too but they don’t generally do lengthy research. They might look up a single record though. You could ask.

Mill Row is no longer in Mill Row. It moved up to Fountain St in Antrim some years back and is now generally referred to as Antrim 1st Presbyterian church.

Torrens is quite a common name in Co Antrim.  Several Torrens families from Scotland settled in North Antrim in the early 1600s  either side of the Bann. It’s a common Presbyterian thing to use a surname as a forename or a middle name.

Yes Toner is more commonly found as an RC surname. 271 Toner/Toners in the 1901 census of Co Antrim. 240 were RC. And yes there was regular intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics in the 1800s. It sometimes involved one party switching to the other denomination. Sometimes the sons would be brought up the father's denomination and the daughters in the mothers. Varied from family to family.