Royal Navy Pay and Victual Record

[Stirrick]

I've been looking at a Royal Navy Rating's WW2 Service Record.

There is precious little detail - there are only 2 entries in the "Ship in which Serving" column and these are to show where he was serving when he was promoted.

However, I also have his 'Pay and Victual Record'. This lists a series of 'stone frigates' between April 1943 and March 1946.

Now, my understanding is that the 'Pay and Victual Record' lists the establishment which was paying and feeding him.

So - and I apologise for my ignorance here - would this always be a 'stone frigate', or would it be a sea-going vessel if he was serving on one ?

It just seems a little strange that he could serve for nearly 3 years, through several different postings, and never serve on an actual ship.

[Andy J2022]

His pay and victualling would have been the responsibility of whatever ship he was serving in at the time - whether ashore or afloat. The only exception to this that I am aware of is members of the various Naval Parties which are raised from time to time for specific purposes. These are usually administered by a larger (usually shore-based unit) as they lack their own internal administrative staff. For example NP 2010 based in the Falkland Islands is administered by RAF Mount Pleasant. 

As for serving ashore for extended periods,  a lot will depend on what branch he was in. I would expect the mainly sea-going branches - a stoker (marine engineer in today's terminology) for instance would spend most of his career at sea, whereas a radio operator (Communication Information Systems Specialist) or an equipment maintainer (Logistician Supply Chain) could spend considerable periods on shore.

[Stirrick]

Thanks for clarifying that, Andy.

This guy was actually a Stoker.

I've attached his Pay & Victual Record. As an aside, would you happen to know what 'Welfare' meant ?

[Lisajb]

I've been looking at a Royal Navy Rating's WW2 Service Record.

There is precious little detail - there are only 2 entries in the "Ship in which Serving" column and these are to show where he was serving when he was promoted.

However, I also have his 'Pay and Victual Record'. This lists a series of 'stone frigates' between April 1943 and March 1946.

Now, my understanding is that the 'Pay and Victual Record' lists the establishment which was paying and feeding him.

So - and I apologise for my ignorance here - would this always be a 'stone frigate', or would it be a sea-going vessel if he was serving on one ?

It just seems a little strange that he could serve for nearly 3 years, through several different postings, and never serve on an actual ship.

My dad was the same - he was a sick berth attendant, later SBPO. He was only ever on one ship - HMHS Maine, during the Korean War. For his naval career both before and after this, he was in shore based establishments.

[Stirrick]

The plot thickens a little.

I have this Stoker's Medal Card and his qualification for the 1939-45 Star is recorded as being 4 April 1944 until 2 September 1945.

Now my understanding is that this Star was only awarded for actual sea-going service. And the period stated was the same as those postings annotated as 'Welfare'.

So could it be that 'Welfare' indicated some form of detached service ?

[HMac]

So - and I apologise for my ignorance here - would this always be a 'stone frigate', or would it be a seagoing vessel if he was serving on one

He could easily have been serving in a seagoing draft and still be administrated by a 'stone frigate' - many seamen such as DEMS and Combined Operations served alfoat but only the administrative base is shown on the records. This does make it very difficult to know the full service of a seaman. Usually the P & V can add further information on sea service but not always.

It just seems a little strange that he could serve for nearly 3 years, through several different postings, and never serve on an actual ship.

I don't believe he never served on an actual ship, it is more than likely that he did but sometimes proving it can be difficult. WW2 Naval records were never kept with genealogists, family historians and researchers in mind and they were never computerised.

Regards
Hugh

[Andy J2022]

Hi Stirrick, I held back from answering your question about the meaning of Welfare because I have no idea what it means in this context and had hoped HMac could provide an answer. Obviously it could have the normal meaning and that for some compassionate reason he was given specific postings to shore establishments due to some personal issues, but if that was the case why would he be posted overseas to places like Malta (HMS (later Fort) St Angelo) or Egypt (HMS Nile) etc? There was an HMS Welfare - a minesweeper launched in 1943 (see Wikipedia) - but if he was serving in that ship, why name the shore establishment with Welfare in brackets afterwards. My last thought was that Welfare was a code name for a particular operation or tasking, but I can't find anything to substantiate that idea.   

[Stirrick]

Doh and Doh !!

Of course you're right, Andy - Minesweeper HMS WELFARE.

This vessel's movements mirror that of our Sailor exactly.

What a dope !

Thank you !!

[HMac]

The ship in brackets is normally the seagoing draft of the rating. Sorry I was asleep at the wheel.
Nice one Andy
Regards
Hugh