Author Topic: 16th century will bequests.  (Read 527 times)

Offline horselydown86

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Re: 16th century will bequests.
« Reply #9 on: Monday 16 October 23 19:03 BST (UK) »
I have been looking online for my own copy of Joseph Wright's Dialect Dictionary, that I can afford, but no luck so far for a full set.

Don't bother - all online.  Linked from here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_English_Dialect_Dictionary

Offline arthurk

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Re: 16th century will bequests.
« Reply #10 on: Monday 16 October 23 19:15 BST (UK) »
I have been looking online for my own copy of Joseph Wright's Dialect Dictionary....

Don't bother - all online.  Linked from here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_English_Dialect_Dictionary

From that I see that there's now a fully online version, allowing filtered searches etc. I think it might be my new go-to link:

https://eddonline4-proj.uibk.ac.at/edd/
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline mezentia

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Re: 16th century will bequests.
« Reply #11 on: Monday 16 October 23 19:35 BST (UK) »
Trouble is I’m a bit of a bibliophile …
Anderson - Leics., Yorks.; Attwood - Worcs., Staffs.,  Salop; Baylis - Worcs.; Beach/Bache - Worcs., Staffs., Salop; Bills - Devon, Worcs.<br />Dovey - Worcs., Staff., Salop; Gill - Worcs.; Hampton - Worcs., Staffs.; Hancox/Hancocks - Worcs., Staffs.<br />Hill - Worcs., Staffs., Salop; Sherwood - Worcs., Staffs.; Stonyer - Worcs., Staff., Salop, Essex<br />Woodall - Worcs., Staffs.; Potter - Essex.

Offline goldie61

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Re: 16th century will bequests.
« Reply #12 on: Monday 16 October 23 20:58 BST (UK) »
I have a will proved in 1595 that makes the follwoing bequests (among others):

What is a counter, and what might be a quye? Could a counter might be the equivalent of a bedspread?

Considering that the word counter is mentioned when talking about bedding it is more than likely a counterpane which is a type of bedspread.

It's not all about bedding - the same sentence also contains a reference to a chest (chist)

The bedding would have been stored in the chest?
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs


Offline Drayke

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Re: 16th century will bequests.
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 17 October 23 04:13 BST (UK) »
You could be right, but unless firm evidence can be found for that usage I don't think it's possible for any of us to give a definitive answer. (Incidentally, according to the OED the earliest record of counterpane is 1626, so at the date of this will it would probably have been the earlier form counterpoint.)

Modern editions of the OED aren't readily available online, but there's one from 1913 at the Internet Archive. I didn't see anything in it about counter as a short or colloquial form of counterpoint, but I might have missed it. The page is at:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.99993/page/n1065/mode/2up

You are correct in that we can never know unless it is described somewhere as to what it is.

There are not however many items that are mentioned in wills as being (or started with the word) a 'counter' other than bedding.

That said, there is the below mentioned link that does describe a table as a counter for sale however every inventory or will from the 16th and 17th centuries I have seen has always listed such items as a table or drawers. This means there is the possibility that the seller has used a modern term of counter and it is not the name given to the furniture piece back in the 15th century.
https://www.periodoakantiques.co.uk/antique-tables/a-rare-example-of-an-early-16th-century-tudor-oak-counter-centre-table-english-circa-1520-2-stockno-1374/

Offline arthurk

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Re: 16th century will bequests.
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 17 October 23 14:04 BST (UK) »
Re 'counter':

There are not however many items that are mentioned in wills as being (or started with the word) a 'counter' other than bedding.

That said, there is the below mentioned link that does describe a table as a counter for sale however every inventory or will from the 16th and 17th centuries I have seen has always listed such items as a table or drawers. This means there is the possibility that the seller has used a modern term of counter and it is not the name given to the furniture piece back in the 15th century.
https://www.periodoakantiques.co.uk/antique-tables/a-rare-example-of-an-early-16th-century-tudor-oak-counter-centre-table-english-circa-1520-2-stockno-1374/

Counter was used in the 16th and 17th centuries for something like a dresser or the table shown in that link. The article I mentioned from the Dialect Dictionary quoted an instance from 1641, and this is supported (and considerably expanded) by the online Yorkshire Historical Dictionary (based on the work of the late George Redmonds):

https://yorkshiredictionary.york.ac.uk/words/counter

Incidentally, searching in this for words beginning 'counter-' doesn't bring up counterpoint (counterpane), etc, but there's an interesting meaning for counterfeit, as some kind of metal basin:

https://yorkshiredictionary.york.ac.uk/words/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search=counter&start_year=&end_year=&search_places=&definition_text=&search_source_materials=
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline goldie61

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Re: 16th century will bequests.
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 17 October 23 22:09 BST (UK) »

Incidentally, searching in this for words beginning 'counter-' doesn't bring up counterpoint (counterpane), etc, but there's an interesting meaning for counterfeit, as some kind of metal basin:

https://yorkshiredictionary.york.ac.uk/words/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search=counter&start_year=&end_year=&search_places=&definition_text=&search_source_materials=

I have come across this use of 'counterfeit' - in 'puter counterfaite' in a list of dishes in Staffordshire, and 'counterfet dishes' in Cheshire, so not just a Yorkshire term.

Counterfeit
Some flatwares, especially large chargers and various sorts of basin were wrought by hand from flat discs of tin/copper alloy (no recycled pewter was allowed) for counterfeit or hand formed wares. Hammering was especially important in this manufacture, and the products of this craft, the present writer argues, were probably what is described in the 1438 Ordinances as ‘counterfeit’ (Welch I, 11-12) that is contra facio, beaten into shapes using a series of hollowed blocks of wood.


An alternative name for ‘porringer’ was ‘counterfeit’ as these utensils can be made this way. Garnishes of counterfeit were sometimes made for the banquet course and were ‘pounced’ or decorated in relief.
http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/3312/2/Archaeology_of_Pewter_Vessels_in_England_Final_Nov_2011.pdf

Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs