Author Topic: Marriage certificate  (Read 753 times)

Offline Geoff-E

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Re: Marriage certificate
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 07 November 23 11:48 GMT (UK) »
I've also seen fathers noted as deceased when they were still alive.

Nothing is necessarily correct just because it's written down.
Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days alive.

Offline coombs

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Re: Marriage certificate
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 07 November 23 23:01 GMT (UK) »
That ancestor who died in 1831 had a child who is my direct ancestor, born 1828, and when he himself wed in 1856 in Hackney he said his fathers name and occupation, and no mention at all of whether alive or not, and the man had been dead 25 years by then.
Researching:

LONDON, Coombs, Roberts, Auber, Helsdon, Fradine, Morin, Goodacre
DORSET Coombs, Munday
NORFOLK Helsdon, Riches, Harbord, Budery
KENT Roberts, Goodacre
SUSSEX Walder, Boniface, Dinnage, Standen, Lee, Botten, Wickham, Jupp
SUFFOLK Titshall, Frost, Fairweather, Mayhew, Archer, Eade, Scarfe
DURHAM Stewart, Musgrave, Wilson, Forster
SCOTLAND Stewart in Selkirk
USA Musgrave, Saix
ESSEX Cornwell, Stock, Quilter, Lawrence, Whale, Clift
OXON Edgington, Smith, Inkpen, Snell, Batten, Brain

Offline cavor3

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Re: Marriage certificate
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 08 November 23 01:48 GMT (UK) »
Thank you all, don,t want to upset each other.

Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Marriage certificate
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 08 November 23 03:28 GMT (UK) »
Perhaps blame being cast on the wrong person anyway, unless it was a Registrar Office or Registrar Attended non-conformist marriage no Registrar was involved in entering info in the marriage books or making the quarterly copies.
We also have to remember that back then the Registars were part time from a multitude of backgrounds, many were Relieving Officers, Solicitors or Clerks but others Builders, Bakers, Farmers and Plumbers. Histpop has some Registration Office vacancy and appointment registers, 1906-1939.

The 25 July 1837 letter from the GRO to the Clergy indicated that names and occupations of the fathers were required whether alive or deceased and did not stipulate annotation as to condition, he seemed to be treading carefully wanting their co-operation.
Is in Appendix H to the First Annual report of the Registrar-General http://www4.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/PageBrowser?path=Browse/Registrar%20General%20(by%20date)/1836-1840&active=yes&mno=461&tocstate=expandnew&display=sections&display=tables&display=pagetitles&pageseq=57&zoom=4
The 1836 etc Acts are not detailed enough simply saying "It shall be lawful for the Registrar before whom any Marriage is solemnized according to the Provisions of this Act to ask of the Parties to be married the several Particulars required to be registered touching such Marriage."

One would have to wade through the other reports or search TNA for later correspondence or find old examples perhaps at the start or end of parish books online. Certainly by 1901 (image attached) there were precise GRO examples as to how entries should be completed in the C of E, which included (deceased) in the Father's name box, not supposed to be after his occupation. I agree it seems not all Clergy asked if the fathers were alive or deceased, or the parties did not volunteer that aspect.

In Ireland I noticed last week Parish/GRO Marriage Book online from about 1886-7 had an asterisk after Father's name and a footnote "This information should be given whether the fathers are living or dead, and if the names are not known, or the parties unwilling to state them, a stroke should be drawn  ---." That footnote was not there on the previous books issued to the churches so they decided to highlight that.

Below is copy and paste from GRO Guidebook for The Clergy March 2019 edition (before the proceedural change to the manner of the registration of marriages with the Clergy no longer completing the formal register for the marriages they solemnized, keeping duplicate books & providing the legal marriage certificate). It was on GOV.UK but is the most recent Feb 2023 version now. Found a 2017 edition online the relevant page being 21.
https://www.churchofengland.org/sites/default/files/2017-10/guidebookclergyfeb15final.pdf

In the 3 example images they have used (Appendix G pages 43 & 44) the same names as 1901 but now suggest the surnames should be in CAPITALS, other than that is just the juristictions the Parishes fall into.

Column 7 – father’s name and surname
4.23 Enter the full names of both fathers’. The name of a person’s natural father should be entered, regardless of whether the person’s parents were ever married to one another.
4.24 The term father may also include step-father, as long as he is or has been married to the mother. You may enter the step-father’s name instead of the natural father’s name if either party requests you do so (qualified by “step-father”).
4.25 If either father has died, you should note this after his name e.g. John SMITH (deceased).
4.26 If one of the couple has been adopted, the adoptive father’s name can be recorded if:
• the adoptive father and son/daughter have the same surname; use that father’s name with no further explanation needed.
• the adoptive father’s name is different; an explanation may be added if wished e.g. George Barnes (adoptive father).
4.27 If either of the couple does not wish to supply their fathers’ details you should put a line in the box.

Column 8 – rank or profession of father
4.28 Enter a full description of the occupation of each father. If the father has retired, note this under the job description e.g. car salesman (retired). You should enter this even if the father has since died. Please do not use abbreviations.
4.29 If either of the couple does not wish to supply this information you should put a line in the box.

My illegitimate gt-grandmother Ethel Dobson obviously didn't want a dash on her certificates so stated father was Alfred Thomas (deceased), Gunsmith on her 1st parish marriage Birmingham 1904, with no qualification as to why the surname differed [Alfred was her step father and was a Gunsmith but he was actually still alive just living apart/separated from her mother, when he eventually died 1926 his solicitors placed a newspaper advertisment seeking info on wife & biological daughters formerly of an 1897-1900 address]. Then on 2nd cert as a Widow 1914 named Elijah Dobson (deceased), Carrier as father in Aston Register Office = her grandfather, long dead and an Agricultural Labourer on the census, but surname matches her maiden/birth cert one. In some cases clearly stating dead stopped further enquiry and was used to cover a 'multitude of sin'.


Offline Andrew Tarr

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Re: Marriage certificate
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 08 November 23 17:30 GMT (UK) »
They don't even have to exist as no proof would be required.  An illegitimate child could easily invent a father.
There must be many examples of this.  I have one in my wife's tree fitting this description - when he married he apparently gave the details for his maternal grandfather.
Tarr, Tydeman, Liversidge, Bartlett, Young

Offline coombs

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Re: Marriage certificate
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 08 November 23 18:45 GMT (UK) »
My 3xgreat grandmother had some illegitimate children in Shoreditch/St Luke 1835 to 1855. The surviving children all invented a father when they married, even though they were all baptised illegitimately.

One ancestor was illegitimate and when he wed in 1843 the fathers name was left blank. He had married in Oxford and was born in a nearby village. Some invented a father, others told the truth.
Researching:

LONDON, Coombs, Roberts, Auber, Helsdon, Fradine, Morin, Goodacre
DORSET Coombs, Munday
NORFOLK Helsdon, Riches, Harbord, Budery
KENT Roberts, Goodacre
SUSSEX Walder, Boniface, Dinnage, Standen, Lee, Botten, Wickham, Jupp
SUFFOLK Titshall, Frost, Fairweather, Mayhew, Archer, Eade, Scarfe
DURHAM Stewart, Musgrave, Wilson, Forster
SCOTLAND Stewart in Selkirk
USA Musgrave, Saix
ESSEX Cornwell, Stock, Quilter, Lawrence, Whale, Clift
OXON Edgington, Smith, Inkpen, Snell, Batten, Brain