Misidentified illegitimate children or just a coincidence?

[scottishlad]

I've run into a bit of snag. I've been working on the siblings and nieces/nephews of my main tree for quite some time, however one brother in particular is really giving me some trouble. I'll try to keep this as succinct as possible:

I have documentation for a William McKenzie tinsmith married to a Mary McMillan in Aberdeen in February in 1851, and another William McKenzie tinsmith married to a Mary McMillan in Aberdeen in February in 1862.

I believe my William to be the one who was married in 1862, however, I have a John born 1865 in Dysart with parent's marriage listed as 1862 (same date on the marriage certificate I have), however I also have a David and a Mary born 1858 and 1860 in Dysart, both to William McKenzie tinsmith's married to a Mary McMillan. So is this just one big coincidence? They just happened to pass through the same town a few years apart? Otherwise wouldn't David and Mary be listed as illegitimate?

I know they're two different people based on the different year listed on some of these birth certificates, but all of the names (aside from David) are common family names. The other children in question are George and Isaac. I know these aren't unique names, but just seems funny that there would be two William McKenzie tinsmiths both married to Mary McMillans both naming their kids the same names as every other family in my tree.

My thought is perhaps the older William is an uncle to the younger William. Just a thread to go down at a later date, but anyway I guess I'm just confused at the similarities and don't really know how to proceed.

I guess the simplest answer is yes it's just a coincidence, John is my William's child because the exact marriage date is listed on his birth certificate, and the other two (who do not contain a marriage date) were just coincidentally born there a few years prior to parents with the exact same name and trade.

[CaroleW]

Have you downloaded both marriage certs to determine their respective parents?

[scottishlad]

Have you downloaded both marriage certs to determine their respective parents?

I can’t find the marriage cert for the 1851 couple unfortunately

[brigidmac]

Because of the Scottish naming system
It's quite common for 2  brothers I've David and John  to name first son after their father William and second daughter after their mother Mary + third son after themselves

So 2 cousins could easily have same name William and same profession as it's passed down from grandfather   &  may name one son after their own fathers David or John or afte their mutual  gfather William or them self & one daughter after their gmother   it doesn't surprise me

[brigidmac]

Could 2 McKenzie cousins have married 2 McMillan cousins ?

Do keep us informed when you unravel it

[scottishlad]

Could 2 McKenzie cousins have married 2 McMillan cousins ?

Do keep us informed when you unravel it

That’s another possibility I’ll look into, thank you! I do have one occurrence of a pair of brothers marrying a pair of sisters so it has happened in my tree before.

[Millmoor]

Have you found the family in the censuses? If I have my matchsticks lined up correctly in 1871 the family are in Wemyss, Fife but there seem to be more children namely William, Rachel and Robert. William Junior is a tinsmith and Rachel is a hawker. She was born in Banffshire. Robert is aged 2 and said to have been born in Kilsyth ( SP has birth with mmn McMillan which matches).

As far as I can see the family are in Dysart in 1861. Another son, Alexander, is recorded aged 9 b Glasgow. In 1881 and 1891 they seem to be in Lochee, Dundee.

In these censuses William's place of birth does seem to vary but Mary's is consistently showing as Ayrshire but I do feel that they are all showing the correct family.

Have you found a death for William and Mary after 1891?

I cannot see the Isaac you refer to in your original post. ( There is a James showing in the 1881 census). Yes they moved about a lot but do wonder why they would marry in Aberdeen. I would not rule out their being just one couple.

William

[scottishlad]

Have you found the family in the censuses? If I have my matchsticks lined up correctly in 1871 the family are in Wemyss, Fife but there seem to be more children namely William, Rachel and Robert. William Junior is a tinsmith and Rachel is a hawker. She was born in Banffshire. Robert is aged 2 and said to have been born in Kilsyth ( SP has birth with mmn McMillan which matches).

As far as I can see the family are in Dysart in 1861. Another son, Alexander, is recorded aged 9 b Glasgow. In 1881 and 1891 they seem to be in Lochee, Dundee.

In these censuses William's place of birth does seem to vary but Mary's is consistently showing as Ayrshire but I do feel that they are all showing the correct family.

Have you found a death for William and Mary after 1891?

I cannot see the Isaac you refer to in your original post. ( There is a James showing in the 1881 census). Yes they moved about a lot but do wonder why they would marry in Aberdeen. I would not rule out their being just one couple.

William

The William I believe to be my William's marriage certificate is 21 Feb 1862 in Aberdeen. Parents recorded as George (tinsmith) and Betsy m.s. Townsley. The death certificate that I believe to be for my William is 13 Dec 1903 in Edinburgh. Parents listed as George (tinsmith) and Bridget m.s. Townsley. 67 years old in 1903 puts him at about 1836 birth. The 1862 marriage certificate has him as 29 (although it looks like 27 had originally been written) which puts him at about 1833-1835 birth. If the 1851 marriage listed on some of these children's birth certificates is to be believed, then "my" William would have been about 15 at the time of his marriage (depending on which age you think is more accurate).

The children in question are:

David b. 1858 Dysart, Fife
Mary b. 1860 Dysart, Fife
George b. 1863 Markinch, Fife
John b. 1865 Dysart, Fife
James b. 1867 Cadder, Lanarkshire
Robert b. 1869 Kilsyth, Stirling
Isaac b. 1873 Lochee, Dundee

I didn't question any of them because the parents were William (tinsmith) and Mary McMillan and the years all seemed to line up. That was until I noticed, for example, George's 'when and where parents married' is "February 1851 Aberdeen". John is "1862 February 21 Aberdeen". Robert (in 1869) is "about 19 years ago Aberdeen". Isaac is "1862 February 21st Aberdeen"...etc.

So I said ok there are clearly two different people here. Two different sets of William McKenzie and Mary McMillan's. I haven't looked into census records for them yet, but will have to do that in order to sort this out. It's just odd because George and Robert and Mary are family names my ancestors used repeatedly. Which is why I think there must be some sort of connection here. Perhaps the older William is a younger brother of "my" William's father George?

They were travelling tinsmiths which makes identifying people based on location next to impossible because they were always on the move. I suppose census records would be best bet at distinguishing the two groups.

Also intersting you see a William, son. I have a William in my tree, but he is "blank" as I haven't been able to find any information on him. The only reason I know he existed is because William's death certificate is signed for by a son named William.

[MonicaL]

In the absence of any record in the OPRs for the 1851 marriage, I would consider that William and Mary may have made this up and the early children born in the late 1850s were indeed born when the parents were not yet married. Remember, there were no detailed checks made by the Registrars when taking and recording details on the registers at this time.

I couldn't see a couple with these names in the 1851 census either, but also haven't yet found William by himself yet!

From what you have mentioned, would this be William's family in 1851? www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1510d2f4040b9d6e1bfe07/bridget-mckenzie-1851-lanarkshire-gorbals-1801-?locale=en

From someone's family tree, this looks to be Bridget's death reg (if you don't have it already):