Hale family (shoemakers) - who were the parents of Mary born Brighton 1838?

[jonw65]

1871
7 Hanover Court, Cripplegate
Susan Hale Head Widow 57 Needle woman, born Middlesex St Clements Danes
Thomas Hale Son 17 Machine Boy
Henry Hale Son 13 Scholar
Edward Hale Son 11 Scholar
The boys all born Middlesex Cripplegate

1881
At 3 Ropemaker Street, Cripplegate.
Susan Hale Head Widow 67 Pickett St Strand City (City has been crossed out)
With her are sons Wiliam, 34, and Edward, 21

[jonw65]

Mary was married on 23 December 1857 at St Paul's Finsbury, Middlesex, to Alfred Cullmer of the Royal London Militia.

Mary has been found in the 1851 Census she is recorded, aged 13 and born in Brighton, as the daughter of Sarah Hale, widow, Shoe Closer, born: "n K".

Mary appears again, in the 1881 Census, as married to Alfred Cullmer with her place of birth confirmed as Brighton.

Mary has been recorded as Coleman in the 1871 census
111 Curtain Road, Shoreditch
Mary Coleman Head Widow 34 Bag handle Maker
Alfred Coleman Son 12 Scholar
Rose Coleman Daur 13 Scholar
All born Middlesex Shoreditch

In 1881 Mary Culmer says she is married, but is on her own. She is 42, Bag Handle Maker, born Sussex Brighton

There are workhouse admissions for Mary and her children in Holborn and Shoreditch, 1868-1872

[jonw65]

I'm dropping her and returning to the pre 1538s.

Do come back, Aceh. It's easier to make progress in the 19th century then that far back!

The birth was registered by Joseph Hale, father

So he obviously existed.
Funnily enough, since Susan (aka Sarah) says she was born in St Clement Danes, there is a Joseph Hale there in the 1841 census! Age 35, Shoemaker, born in the county.
Perhaps they weren't together when the census was taken.

Re a death.
We know the Hales were in the East London registration district.
If we take Frances Hale, mother Williams, 1843-1844, as one of theirs, then there is a change when William's birth was registered in 1846.

These may be the sons' birth registrations and my guess is that there is no father named on either.
HALE, WILLIAM        -     
GRO Reference: 1846  D Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION  Volume 02  Page 231

HALE, THOMAS        -     
GRO Reference: 1851  J Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION  Volume 02  Page 228

Mary naming her father as John instead of Joseph is probably because she had no memory of him

Of course the Williams maiden name is back later on the births of Henry and Edward, but that just means that mum gave fuller information about herself. There may be no father named on the certificates. Joseph being named on the baptisms of the boys may have been done for propriety's sake (of course she may have fibbed on those last two certificates as well!)

So if Joseph had died before 1846, rather than just disappeared, there is this possibility in the quarter following the one for Frances

HALE, JOSEPH       
Age at Death (in years): 42 
GRO Reference: 1844  S Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION  Volume 02  Page 167

[jonw65]

What does Aceh think now? Has any progress made on this problem?

[rosie99]

Well done John, lots to read there and take in  .  Hopefully Aceh will come back to this soon with their thoughts.

Rosie

[jonw65]

Thanks, Rosie. Yes, a lot to take in. And still a long way to go!
John

[Aceh]

Rosie & Jonw,

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner; i had not anticipated your getting the bit between the teeth on my behalf, for which I thank you. Although I have been retired for almost 20 years my life has a full agenda of which genealogy is but one of the many different balls I try to keep in the air at any one time.
I find the 3 sequential baptisms in Brighton very interesting, they are only yet another Hale family but they may represent a centre of shoemaking folk in that part of Brighton, so a check of the names and occupations of others in the same immediate area in the 1841 census may uncover some more. I've just checked my record but the only Hale I have in 1841 is John Hale, warehouseman, born within the county  & wife Elizabeth straw bonnet  maker, at 5, King Street Shoreditch. I don't have anything in Brighton.
OK, it's nearly 9 o clock so I'm off to bed. I will study your other finds tomorrow after my medical appointment.

Many thanks again.

[Aceh]

Now back on seat.

I can trace the life of Mary Cullmer (formally Hale) from her marriage to the infamous Alfred Cullmer, to her death in 1916, but, as far as I can see, there was no conection to the Hale family or to shoemaking. Alfred Cullmer (aka "Old George" to his criminal associates) left the Militia and became a travelling bag maker (at least on the surface, that was his occupation) and Mary became a bag handle maker. Around 1860 it became obvious to Mary that her other half had developed a taste for 15 year old girls, so she exited stage left with her daughter Rosina aged 3 and her son Alfred aged 1 and thereafter lived in lodgings. If you want the full story on Alfred, there was a scavenger hunt run by Toni* in the Common Room a few years ago now - it lasted several years but I assume it has now been closed.

As I said, my aim is to confirm the parentage of Mary Hale so that I can explore her ancestry and to that end I have been looking at Brighton,where I have come across the following:

Baptisms:

Mary Hale 29 July 1838 Brighton, father Williams Hale, mother Mary @ Parish church of St Nicholas
Sarah Hale 29 July 1838 Brighton, father Williams Hale, mother Mary @ Parish Church of St Nicholas

They were not twins. We already have a birth for Mary Hale in Brighton on 5 May 1838
A birth hunt for Sarah in Brighton came up with 'not found'. I have found a birth for a Sarah Hale: 1837 Bethnal Green Vol 2, Page 6 MMN Pritchard. This suggests that the MMN for both should be Pitchard dosent it or am I going mad?

[Aceh]

I have rechecked again on FindmyPast the double baptism at St Nicholas, Brighton that is recorded as having taken place on 29 July 1838 and I confirm that the records state:

Sarah Hale, Father Williams Hale, Mother Mary -
Mary Hale, Father Williams Hale, Mother Mary -

Sarah appears to have been born in Bethnal Green the previous year and, if this is the correct birth,   then her mother's maiden name was Prichard and therefore Mary's also.

This appears to be the same event as Jon's triple baptism quoted in his post of 9 April as it's on the same day and appears to be in the same place. So what is going on?

One other thing- from Free Reg, between 1800 & 1838 the only Joseph Hale born in Brighton was of the same generation as Mary herself. So if Mary's father, as per her birth certificate, is correct, then he was born elsewhere, probably London.

And yet another thing - Mary's birth certificate was sent to me in September 2002 by the Sussex Record Office and the covering note with it stated that it was the only birth of a Mary Hale they had in their records. or words to that effect. I have hunted for this note but I haven't found it among my Culmer papers.