Hale family (shoemakers) - who were the parents of Mary born Brighton 1838?

[Aceh]

Rosie / Jon

I have now checked the baptism at Brighton on 29 July of a Mary Hale,with FreeREG and the answer agrees with that of FindMyPast as follows:

Father: Forename William; Surname Hale
Mother: Forename Mary. Surname - not given

So it appears that there were 2 Mary Hales baptised in Brighton, both having a connection with Boss Gardens / Riding School Lane. The other Mary Hale being with Father Joseph Hale and mother Susan Hale, formerly Williams, as per Birth Certificate.

Jon, going back to the Baptism register that you attached to an earlier post. I took a screen shot and blew it up a bit, I now see your 3rd baptism, that of John William, son of William & Mary Hale. Curate Woodwood was obviously doing a job lot. I also looked back through the register to page 200 and there were no other Hale families recorded, so it was not a common name in Brighton.

Enough, I must hit the sack. My next move,i think, is to look for a marriage in Sussex & London of a Joseph Hale to a Susan Williams, in the years before the Birth Certificate.
 

[jonw65]

Hi there
The infamous Alfred Cullmer sounds interesting! Certainly Mary was having a rough time later, with those workhouse admissions. Though the 4 March 1868 discharge from the Holborn workhouse says that Mary was taken out by Husband. Children Rosina and Alfred were with her.
I do think you have found the right Mary, her father's details on her marriage tally.

I believe it says Williams as father's name on those Hale Brighton baptisms in 1838. Which is curious, as it is said to be Sarah/Susan's maiden name. But I can't find any BTs of baptisms in Brighton for 1838 for comparison.
As a family, even with William as father, there is not really any further sign.

What we do know is that Susan and the children ended up later in the City of London. But were they there with Joseph as early as 1843?
Jon

[Aceh]

Evening Jon,
 Thanks very much for the Workhouse discharge info; it is indeed very interesting that husband Alfred Cullmer arranged for Mary, Rosina aged 10 and Alfred aged 8 to be released. Up to now I had no knowledge of there being a period(s) in the workhouse, but it does not surprise me. In 1868, Alfred had been shacked up with Ellen Elizabeth Wheeler (16 years old at the beginning - her father was dead and her mother acquiesced) since early 1862 and by 1868 Ellen Elizabeth had a young son George. I suspect that Mary would have been required to name her husband and the area where he was last known to have been living, in order to have been accepted into the workhouse. He was presumably able to provide minimal assistance from the proceeds of a recent "job" (arson & insurance fraud).
When you say Mary's father's details tally do you mean the workhouse records on him tally? because the marriage certificate clearly name's Mary's father as "John Hale, shoemaker".

If you want to know more about

[Aceh]

Morning Jon,

Sorry about the abrupt ending of my post last night; it was interupted by an incoming Skype call from my sister in Tasmania which lasted quite a while.

If you want to know more about infamous Alfred Cullmer here are the links:

1. Trial at the old Bailey 10 June 1861: abduction of 15 year old Emily Blackshaw without consent of her father (Emily was, after all, her father's property therefore it was akin to a theft!).

2. Although Alfred had died on 23 July 1888, the police & insurance companies had by 1890 eventually joined up the dots and arrested Alfred Jnr and the rest of the gang...except for Ellen Elizabeth Wheeler, Alfred's partner & mother of his 3 sons, who escaped up the gangplank of a ship down in the docks and was never seen or heard of again.
Appearances by the gang members, including Ellen Elizabeth's aged mother, initially before magistrates, but ultimately at the Old Bailey in February & March 1891, were covered daily in the world's press (via the newfangled undersea cable) in which the late Alfred was declared "The Fire King of London" and Ellen Elizabeth the "Fire Queen".

Ok, back to Mary, Alfred's lawful widow & relict, and her children. Surprisingly Alfred was a witness at the marriage of his daughter Rosina to Isaac William Osborn at St Leonard Shoreditch on 15 November 1879 (Q4 1879, Shoreditch, Vol 1c, Page327). Mary was recorded as being present at Alfred's death from tuberculosis in Hoxton on 23 July 1888 (Q3 1888, Shoreditch, Vol 1c, page 51). Mary's son Alfred Jnr married Eleanor Sampson, again in Shoreditch, and was last found in Melbourne, Australia in 1893. Mary died in Islington a short distance from her daughter Rosina, on 28 december 1916. (Q4 1916, Islington, Vol 1b, page 422).

[jonw65]

Hi
I haven't been able to find out much more.
Alfred and Mary seem to have had another son, George, registered as Cullmer, March qtr 1862, Shoreditch.
Death registered in the Dec qtr of the same year, age 0, also in Shoreditch.

George was buried at Victoria Park Cemetery, 13 Dec 1862. Age 12 months.
Curiously the address given is Long Alley, Bishopsgate.

[Aceh]

Young George died after 5 days of Pneumonia at 5, Ruddocks Buildings Shoreditch. Ruddocks Buildings featutred strongly in a survey report on very poor housing conditions by a Doctor (his name escapes me) with the description of cramped damp conditions, etc. I do know of Long Alley, one of many off of Bishopsgate; my Riley ancestors lived in Rose Alley around 1800.

I have looked for a marriage for Susan Williams to Joseph Hale with zero result. Realisticly I dont have enough certainty of Mary Hale's paranrage to go off at half cock with a balance of probability. If it could be proved tha Susan was Susan Sarah or vice-versa and Joseph was Joseph John or vice-versa, perhaps .... but I've been wasting my time up too many blind alleys (one was for well over 2 years until the link person was, with the issue of new data, recorded to have died at the age of 15 months !).

I hope you have found my 2x Great Grandfather Alfred of interest. He represents (as far as I am aware) the lowest of my ancesters.  My 14x Great Grandfather , Richard Culmer, yeoman, of St Peters in Thanet (later named Broadstairs), Kent, who was buried beneath the chancel of the parish church before the altar in November 1485, was the highest. From his will I can say that he was born  at least in or before 1430, and very likely, many years before that.

Thanks again for your help and Rosie99 also.