John Curley of Tuam Galway

[SapereAude]

Hi all,
I have been attempting to research my Irish 3x ggf, John Curley, born in Tuam, Galway in abt. 1856 and have hit a brick wall as to his life before he emigrated to England at some point before 1874, (birth of his first child). He married Catharine Roach(e) (born in abt. 1855 in Liverpool to Irish parents Richard (b. abt 1826) and Catherine MNU (b. abt 1824)), and they had eleven children. I have traced him, his children, his wife and his wife's parents/siblings around England but I can't find anything about John, or Catharine's parents, before they emigrated... I was wondering if anyone could help me?
(Once in England, I think some Curleys changed their name to Corless and back, it all seems quite complicated...)

It is the family researched in this rather old post: https://www.rootschat.com/links/01t14/ (I wish I had found this post before I started researching this side; it would have saved me many hours of struggling!)

Thank you in advance for your time and research:)
SapereAude

PS: There is a vague idea of America in family lore around this branch, also said by the author of the post I pasted, could this be a possibility?

[shanreagh]

All I know is that Corless is a Tuam name as part of my family (my gt grandmother whose family that I have yet to search for) were Corless' from Tuam.  My aunt born 1900, was named Corless as a first name,  after this part of the family. 

Have you had a poke around in this database?

https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

Also Griffiths Valuation?
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/

The Irish used a naming system:
'First son usually named for the father's father
Second son usually named for the mother's father
Third son usually named for the father
Fourth son usually named for the father's eldest brother
Fifth son usually named for the mother's eldest brother
First daughter usually named for the mother's mother
Second daughter usually named for the father's mother
Third daughter usually named for the mother
Fourth daughter usually named for the mother's eldest sister
Fifth daughter usually named for the father's eldest sister.'
From Family Search

They used  it but were often not slavish in the way some Scots families were.  It can give a few clues though.  If you have the birth order of all the children of John Curley/Corless and Catharine Roache/Roche then you might strike it lucky to find the g/parents names reflected in those of the children. 

It would be useful if you could supply the childrens names in birth order, including the names of those who may have died as infants. 


ETA:
PS Strictly speaking the families coming to England from Ireland did not 'emigrate'.  Ireland and England were part of the same country United Kingdom.  Better to say they 'moved' from Co Galway to  XXXX in England

[heywood]

In the thread you refer to, I mentioned a marriage in Leigh, Lancashire
Free BMD
1871 March quarter, Leigh volume 8c, pg 240
John Corless and Catharine Roach are on the same page.
Lancashire BMD confirms they are spouses and the marriage was at the Registrars or Registrar attended.

**the marriage certificate would confirm the fathers of the couple

You say you have traced Catherine’s family so you will have:

1871 3965/79/23
Richard and Catherine Roche and children plus
John and Catherine Curly, boarders.

1881 4065 /92/29

John and Catherine Curley and children are in Oldham with boarders, Richard and Catherine Roach.

1891 3300/97
Your family are still in Oldham and there is a boarder, Thomas Curley, 60 yrs with them.

As mentioned, the marriage certificate would be useful.

[heywood]

For information - may be helpful

1881 4071 /97/29
5 Hanover Street Oldham
Thomas Curley 47 yrs b Galway
Bridget 47 yrs b Galway
Patrick 20yrs b Oldham

Oldham Cemetery Records has burials in the same grave:
1886 - Bridget Curley, 5 Hanover Street
1892 - Thomas Curley - Smethurst Street (your family there in 1891)
Plus others

Lancashire opc https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
You can check them in full

Baptisms
1884. Ellen Corless with Godparent, P Corless
1888  Francis Corless with Godparents Thomas Corless, Esther Corless

[shanreagh]

So heywood then is it possible that Thomas and Bridget could be brother and sister in law of John Corless/Curley?

Or parents? 

If parents then Patrick aged 20 in 1881 (born 1861) would be a brother and parents may have lived in Oldham for some time and come to Oldham between when John was born in Ireland ca 1856 and when Patrick was born in Oldham in 1861. 

Under the parents scenario perhaps John came over with his parents earlier than  the date of 1874 shortly before the birth of the first child in 1874 with Catharine Roach/Roche. In fact the couple may have married in march quarter 1871 and appear in the 1871 census in 1871. (see heywood's research)  I would ponder that there may be earlier children than 1874. I would ponder that if Thomas and Bridget are the parents of John that he may have come with them to England as a small boy  before the birth of Patrick or possibly that even that he was also born in England?

Finding out the relationship between Thomas and Bridget to John might yield more results initially

To me looking both at the earlier thread and the OP's post it seems odd/unlikely that a first child would be born in 1884 to parents married in 1871, even a first one born in 1874 after a wedding in 1871 would be a little unusual. 

[shanreagh]

Looking at Irish births and the possibility that Thomas and Bridget may be the parents of John Corless/Curley there is this baptism on 23 August 1857 at Kilmoylan Tuam Co Galway to a Thomas Corlis and a Bridget Nestor. 

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6N8T-7M6V

ETA Not having much luck in the parish registers but do note that Nestors appear in the children baptised in this parish. 

ETA2 Continuing on what may be a flight of fancy back in the early decades of the 1800s (20s/30s ) there are a few Nestor/Corles/Corlis marriages in Kilmoylan or Tuam.

[SapereAude]

Hello all, thank you so much,

It would be useful if you could supply the childrens names in birth order, including the names of those who may have died as infants.

John and Catharine Curley/Corless's children in birth order are Catharine, John, James, Mary, Ellen, Richard, Fanny, Esther, Joseph, Edward and George (I haven't found any more in baptisms etc.). It seems they were quite loose about the naming pattern.

Under the parents scenario perhaps John came over with his parents earlier than  the date of 1874 shortly before the birth of the first child in 1874 with Catharine Roach/Roche. In fact the couple may have married in march quarter 1871 and appear in the 1871 census in 1871. (see heywood's research)  I would ponder that there may be earlier children than 1874. I would ponder that if Thomas and Bridget are the parents of John that he may have come with them to England as a small boy  before the birth of Patrick or possibly that even that he was also born in England?

Finding out the relationship between Thomas and Bridget to John might yield more results initially

I have looked into the parents scenario and have found a Thomas and Bridget Curley (transcribed as Carley) born in Ireland, in the 1861 census aged 30 and 31 as visitors in Clay Lane, Derbyshire (seems to be a very Irish area) with children John (7), who was born in Ireland, Thomas (4), born in Derbyshire and Patrick (1 mo), also born in Derbyshire. (2525/90/8)
They fit everything, except that in the 1881 census heywood found, Patrick was listed as born in Oldham.

Thanks again for your time and research ,
SapereAude

[heywood]

Have you looked for births in both areas for Patrick?

This looks like the one in Derbyshire
1861 Patrick Curley
GRO has mother as ‘Eggins’ (may be Higgins or similar).

I haven’t yet seen one for Oldham.

[heywood]

This is a long post - sorry. I am puzzled by this information and your family. You will need to read and check it.
If you don’t have the Roach/Curley marriage it might be useful to purchase it.

1881 4065/92/29

John and Catherine Curley, living in a Court, Brunswick Street, Oldham with children and boarders, Richard and Catherine Roach.

1891 3300/7
John and Catherine Curley with several children at 7, Smethurst Street, Oldham with Thomas Curley, widower

1892
Thomas Curley, 61 yrs burial - Greenacres Cemetery

In the same burial plot
1886 - Bridget Curley, 56 yrs, 5, Hanover Street

1893 - Elizabeth Curley, 6 yrs, North Street **

1894 - Sarah Ann Curley, 4 yrs, North Street **

1894 - Margaret E Newell, 8 weeks, 3 Daisy Street

1895 - John Curley, 3 yrs, 10 Hanover Street

** Lancs opc - baptisms - parents John and Ellen Curley need Newall

I can’t  see this couple in 1891 but they are in 1881 and 1901
**in 1901, he is born Galway

Marriage
1874 John Curley and Ellen Newel

There is also a marriage:
1878 Margaret Newall and Thomas Curley

I can’t see then in 1881 but
1891 3300/63 - New Radcliffe Street
Thomas and Margaret Curley. Thomas shows birth as Chesterfield, Derbyshire

This looks to be the family you found in Derbyshire and the burial records seem to fit.

I find it confusing because the  burial record for Thomas Curley shows Smethurst Street as is T C in 1891 with your family.