Birth certificate/adoption certificate issued pre 1927

[bbart]

On Ivan's citizenship papers for the USA, he puts wife Elsie's birthday as 21 Feb 1900. He's a year out, assuming my last post is correct:

[Dundee]

Edited to add[/color]:  There is the possibility that Ivan wasn't the real father, and Elsie had an affair with a Forrest while Ivan was in New York? Ivan might not have even known about the baby?

That is what I thought was going on all along    I think that Harold Snr is the father of Harold Jnr.

Debra 

[bbart]

That is what I thought was going on all along    I think that Harold Snr is the father of Harold Jnr.
Debra 

Yes you did!      I wonder if Ivan even knew about it?  Or maybe it was the start of their failing marriage.
Rootschat needs a time machine....

[Pinetree]

I’ve just been reading through this fascinating thread. Just shows how fabulous Rootschatters are and delighted that Noteven… finally getting some answers.  Brings to mind: Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive!

Well done everyone.

Pinetree

[Noteventhebirdsareupyet]

On Ivan's citizenship papers for the USA, he puts wife Elsie's birthday as 21 Feb 1900. He's a year out, assuming my last post is correct:

Elsie's DOB seems to sometimes be 1900 and other times 1899, depending on the source.

[Noteventhebirdsareupyet]

Some of this has already been mentioned by others here, but reposting in a reverse time line will make it easier to follow.  As well as the name Forrest, I don't think "Elsie" was an Elsie.

On the Oct 1922 passenger list, Elsie Koselj gives her father as H. Weigand, of 85 Southampton St., Camberwell.
Using an address search for the 1921 census, which can't be discussed (copyright reasons), has her father mistranscribed as "Henry WeiYand", and matches perfectly for the following 1911 census:

1911:   Henry Weigand ,is a baker, and married to Lina  (Carolina), and he has indicated the first 3 children are from his 1st marriage, and mistakenly says these children are born in Germany, as he was.   They are living at 155 Great College St Camden Town London N W, St Pancras.

Jumping back to 1901, Piece 148 Folio 41 Page 18, Henry the baker is with his first wife, Louisa, with children Louisa and May, at the same address as in 1911. 
This address is also the one on his citizenship papers at Ancestry, which gives his parents names, if you are trying to work back. Note there is a George "Walter" transcribed as living with them.  If you look at the image, I believe it says George Wetter. 
This census shows the first two born children, Louisa and May ( transcribed as Louise and Mary) as being born in Pancras. 

I believe "Elsie Louise"  is actually Louisa Marie Annie.  I had hoped her mother was nee Forrest, but no such luck!

WEIGAND, LOUISA  MARIE ANNIE     WETTER     
GRO Reference: 1899  M Quarter in PANCRAS  Volume 01B  Page 106

WEIGAND, MAY        WETTER     
GRO Reference: 1900  S Quarter in PANCRAS  Volume 01B  Page 95

Hopping forward to 1919, Jorose posted (Reply #11) about the birth of Harold Arthur Forrest Koselj.
The details from that are DOB 30 Jul 1919, born at 41 Jeffreys Road, father Ivan Koselj, a journeyman hairdresser of 215 Euston Rd., and mother E. L. Koselj of same address.

41 Jeffreys Rd was apparently a maternity hospital, according this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sarflondondunc/2131043168

I may have missed reading it, but is there an address for Harold's adoptive parents around that time?  Maybe they were neighbours?

Edited to add:  There is the possibility that Ivan wasn't the real father, and Elsie had an affair with a Forrest while Ivan was in New York? Ivan might not have even known about the baby?

Thanks so much for all this info. I've been trying to access records from the maternity hospital but I'm not sure there are any patient records available.

Eleanor/Irene and Harold were living in Upper Park Road around that time Harold was there in 1919 and Irene is there in 1921. Not neighbours,  half an hour bus journey. Not far though , possibly they knew each other.

I feel like I should just be happy with the info I have but that loose end of "Elsie Koselj previously forrest" and the fact that the families seemed wealthy enough to support a second child makes me wonder why they would have given him up but kept Audrey the sister in the family. Ivan not knowing about the child and there being another father seems likely but I'm trying to work out how on earth I prove that.

[Noteventhebirdsareupyet]

Just to muddy the waters further. I've just seen on Elsie/Louise's naturalization papers that she is also know as Elsie castle. Another line of enquiry.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/5039131:2499?_phcmd=u(%27https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/?name=Louise+_Koselj&event=_England&birth=1900&successSource=Search&queryId=4f2089fd-da5e-409c-a7f5-45fdb25831d5%27,%27successSource%27)

[bbart]

Perhaps Elsie was trying to make Kosel sound less "foreign", and used Castle?  Who knows!

I was wondering if children weren't part of their lifestyle.... they didn't go to New York right away. The 1922 passenger list and both of their citizenship papers said they had been living in Paris, France.  Ivan loved the Hollywood scene, and a few news-clips have him acting in plays.  Perhaps they just wanted to be part of the rich and famous set, and children didn't "fit in". 

They said on the citizenship records that they came on the ship Aquitania.  You can see Elsie on the incoming passenger list, but on the UK outgoing list, she is crossed out (usually means they didn't board).  Ivan isn't on either list, unless he is hiding under another name.

[Noteventhebirdsareupyet]

 But why keep Audrey if they didn't want the commitment of children? Maybe a second child was just too much for them. Elsie was certainly a young mother, albeit not for the time.I've got a digital image of  Harold Arthur Forrest's birth certificate but I'm awaiting the full copy from the GRO, which I'm hoping might reveal something, possibly the person who registered the birth. If it was Ivan then that removes the idea that he never knew of the birth.

Was it common practice to add the surname of a prospective adoptive couple as a middle name for a child intended for adoption?

I am struggling to get the adoption certificate for Harold Arthur Forrest because I have no idea when he was adopted. He had a birth certificate later in life with only Irene and Harold on it with an 'A' in the top corner, which he was informed meant that he was adopted. But when that was issued is a mystery. The GRO will only search a year after and a year before the date you give them, so given that he would have been formally adopted sometime between say 1926 and  say 1935 (when they suddenly realised Harold would need a copy of his birth certificate??) I can't be precise enough for the GRO.