Denis McKay + Henry/Neil McKay Lookup or Advice

[jacko9]

Hi all,

I'm having a bit of trouble with confirming POB for Denis McKay 1856 and confirming his fathers first name and general identity.

Starting Point:
Denis McKay
B:abt 1856 Ireland (Taken from Scottish Census records 1881/91/01)
D:18 Jun 1935 Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Father:
Henry or Neil McKay
B:?
D:?
(Looks to be Neil on Denis' Marriage Certificate, but Henry on Death Certificate)

Mother:
Mary Cummings
B:?
D:?
(Noted as Mary Cummings on Denis' Marriage Certificate, and noted as Mary Cummins on Death Certificate)

To be honest, my skills are pretty limited and going on the assumption of his parents being Irish as he was born there. I have tried Roots.IE, church and civil records on irishgenealogy and the census on nationalarchives but may have missed something.

I suspect that a Michael McKay could be a brother to Denis (who married Catherine Gribben/Gribbin in Scotland 1871), but would like to stack some some more sources before adding to my tree.

Any there any suggestions or advice that can be offered? Any pointers or look ups would be hugely appreciated. If I have missed any crucial info please let me know.
Thanks again in advance!

[jacko9]

Here's a current snip of the tree

[Elwyn Soutter]

You need to look at that 1871 marriage to see if Michael's parents match Denis's. It will also tell you the father's occupation (important in Irish research) and whether they were alive or dead on that date.

Ancestry has an RC baptism for Denis McCoy in Loughgilly, Co Armagh on 27th May 1852. Parents Henry McCoy and Mary Cummins. Looks promising.

I also see additional children to that couple in the same baptism records:

Michael 28.3.1842
Elizabeth 16.2.1854
Ann 27.7.1850

[jacko9]

Thank you for taking a look Elwyn.

That certainly does look promising, I've dangerously gone by a tree from a DNA match to get the info of Michael (not my usual technique) and they estimate his birth around  1843 (I'd guess they got it from a death rec due to the accurate date of death). So your info and his seem to line up.

Was there anything to suggest Denis was in that record set? (Do you have the link still handy?)

Just looking at might notes again for Denis' birth and it seems the dates are slightly sketchy:
Marriage Record in 1884, aged 28 (suggests 1856)
Census in 1891, aged 35 (suggests 1856)
Census in 1901, aged 45 (suggests 1856)
Census in 1911, aged 48 (suggests 1863)
Death Record in 1935, aged 76 (suggests 1859)

I'll have a look on Scotland's people and try get some credits for the marriage/death/census records of Michael

[jacko9]

I've had a dig on Ancestry and the below.

Is McCoy > McKay a feasible jump? Or is it possible some of them just changed their Irish name to a more Scottish one when they moved to Scotland?

Will look at the Michael McKay records shortly

[Elwyn Soutter]

Yes McCoy becoming McKay in Scotland is perfectly feasible.  It’s the same name and all that has happened is that it has been Scottified a bit. Many names changed like that when folk moved to Scotland eg McDonnell to MacDonald, Loughlin to Lauchlin. Ellen often became Helen in Scotland.

MacLysaght’s Surnames of Ireland says McCoy is one of the several anglicised forms of Mac Aodha (son of Hugh). MacKay/McKay is also from that same precise origin, as is McKee.  MacLysaght says that in Ulster McCoy is a galloglass name. In other words they are descendants of Scots who came to Ireland in the 1300s - 1500s as mercenaries, and were given land in return for their fighting skills, against other Irish tribes and also the English.

Here’s Henry McCoy of Carrowmannin, Co Armagh who died 9th July 1897 aged 68. He may be your Denis’s father. He is shown as a farmer but he only had 5 acres according to Griffiths Valuation, so that’s subsistence farming.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05859/4660721.pdf

Informant was daughter Annie McKeown. Here’s Annie’s marriage, to a man working in Cadzow, Scotland:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1894/10551/5843559.pdf

Henry’s wife Mary’s death on 1st Feb 1884. Son John was the informant.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06340/4818312.pdf

Informant was son John. Here’s his marriage:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1865/11572/8257586.pdf

John then dies in 1895:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1895/05945/4689212.pdf

Here’s his widow on the farm in Carrowmannin in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Balleek/Carrowmannon/1035011/

And in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Belleek/Carrowmannan/305210/

Big jump in her age in 1911 (25 years on her age in 1901).  This was because of the old age pension which began in 1909. You had to be over 70 to qualify, so folk “reviewed” their age accordingly.

Note: I can’t be certain this is the right family but most of the information seems to fit. Don’t worry too much about ages. Irish folk in the 1800s didn’t celebrate birthdays and often didn’t really know how old they were. Ages vary dramatically in Irish records.  Many were just guesstimates.

[jacko9]

Thank you again Elwyn, it's amazed me how much in depth info you've managed to collect - you're time and help is very much appreciated! I will go through what you've posted below tomorrow with fresher eye balls. Interesting that Annie's has a connection to Cadzow, this was the place that Denis' son got married in 1906.

Just as an FYI, I got the docs for Michael:

- Marriage in 1871: 28, Coal Miner. Father: ?Henry? McKay, ag. lab. Mother: Mary McKay m.s Cummings. One of the witness' is a James McKay
- 81 Census: 38, Coal Miner from Ireland
- 91 Census: 54, Coal Miner from Ireland
- 01 Census: 64, Coal Miner from Ireland
- Death in 1907: 56, Coal Miner widower of Catherine Gribbin. Father: Henry McKay, Farmer. Mother: Mary McKay m.s Cummings. Witness: Son, John McKay (6 Young St, Hamilton)

[Elwyn Soutter]

Just as an FYI, I got the docs for Michael:

- Marriage in 1871: 28, Coal Miner. Father: ?Henry? McKay, ag. lab.

I think the father’s name on the marriage certificate is Harry, not Henry. But Harry is a common synonym for Henry. (Prince Harry’s name on his birth certificate is Henry). Other examples are Sarah & Sally, Peggy & Margaret, Robin & Robert (poet Robert Burns was known to his friends as Robin),  John & Jack and so on. Note that both Henry/Harry & Mary were both still alive in 1871. I can’t find any other couple who were still both alive in 1871, who fit the information you have.

Ag Lab and farmer are not always the same thing but with only 5 acres Henry was close to being an ag lab.

[Elwyn Soutter]

If you are interested in where the McCoy family lived in Loughgilly, use the Griffiths Valuation site. There are maps there that show you the layout in the 1860s and also today. Plus you can view a satellite image too.

https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

The McCoy plot was no 36 in Carrowmannan on the Griffiths maps. That was a narrow strip of land on either side of the modern A25 Newtown Rd, today close to Dip & Dazzle Dog grooming. About a quarter of a mile west of Belleek (sometimes Balleek). The farmhouse itself was just beside the Newtown Rd. I see some ruined single story buildings there today. It does not look inhabited. The land around it looks still to be farmland, save for a section across the road from the old farm which is occupied by a modern house.