Military Prison or Civilian Prison 1884

[SnowyHog]

Hello,

My Great x 2 Grandad, George Stocks was sentenced to 2 years Hard Labour in 1884, after he re enlisted in the Army after previously leaving in 1880.  Would anyone know if he would have served his sentence in a Military prison ( I assume he would have served his sentence in Cork, as his court martial was there) or would he have served in a Civilian Prison. ? If his regiment (20th Hussars) then left the area would this make a difference to where he was serving his sentence?  Thanks in advance.

[Andy J2022]

I can only refer to King's Regulations dated 1914. However I am reasonably sure a very similar policy would also have applied in the 1880s.

It all depends on the actual wording of the punishment awarded by the Court Martial. If he was given 2 years detention then he would have been held in a military detention facility, frequently somewhere near to his unit. However if he sentenced to imprisonment, then the sentence would have been carried out in a civil prison. You say he was sentenced to hard labour. The 1914 KRs only speak about penal servitude (as a harsher sentence than just imprisonment), and this would have been carried out in a civilian prison. I'm assuming that hard labour and penal servitude are synonymous here. 

You don't mention if he was also sentenced to be discharged with ignominy, but this was quite common where a long sentence such as two years was awarded, and this would almost invariably be for imprisonment and not detention. The purpose of detention was to keep the solider in the military environment where he could be rehabilitated, remain fit and generally subject to a military way of life. Clearly, none of this was necessary if he was to be discharged.

If a soldier was imprisoned in a civil prison the supervision of his sentence then came under the Home Office  (or in this case the Irish Office, I suspect), and unless the Irish/Home Office felt it necessary to move him, he would stay in the same prison for the whole of his sentence. However, had he been undergoing military detention it would have been was possible to move him when his unit moved back to the UK. He wouldn't have gone abroad if his Regiment went abroad.

That said, 2 years of either detention or imprisonment was the maximum that could be awarded by a District or General Court Martial for strictly 'military' offences (like desertion). In other words it was only awarded for the most serious or the most persistent offending. 

[ShaunJ]

He was discharged with ignominy on 25 April 1884

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO121%2F0239%2F001_128&parentid=GBM%2FWO121%2F121556833

[SnowyHog]

Thank you for the repiles.

He was originally sentenced to 5 years , but this was commuted to 2 years. I can check the wording when I get home.

I have never found him after his sentencing and would hate to think he died in prison, and was buried in the grounds etc. 

There is no sign of him on the Irish GRO  as having died.

[SnowyHog]

George under the alias of George Brown, enlists on 17th November 1881 at Bradford, West Yorks into the Royal Marines, No 2204, "A" Company. He is discharge at Walmer, Kent on 29th May 1882, owing to selling his kit, and neglecting to tell of previous Army service of 6 years, and being discharged to the reserves.

In July 1882 George enlists under the alias of George Walker no 33662 to the Royal Artillery, Lancashire divsion, Liverpool, he is discharged with Ignomy on 17th July 1882.

George enlists with the 20th Hussars no 2212 under his real name, at Canterbury on 31st October 1883.

George's previous service is discovered on 4th January 1884, at Ballincollig, Co Cork and he was tried by court martial on 4th February 1884 in Cork. He was sentenced to five years in prison and this was commuted to two years.


 

[Andy J2022]

Funnily enough KRs 1914 goes into quite a lot of detail about how to deal with cases of false enlistments and covers examples of men who first join the Royal Marines then later enlist in the Army while still liable for reserve service with the Marines.

[SnowyHog]

Extra info as promised. George received a General court martial, and was sentence to 5 years penal servitude, which was then commuted to two years with hard labour.  His was charged over failing to notify of service with the Royal Artillery.

There where other Soldiers charged with George who had also re enlisted with previous service, so it appears it was an ongoing issue.

An Alfred Stratford is listed too who was in the 20th Hussars and died,  he is listed on the Irish GRO. So I would suspect if George died, he should have been listed on the GRO.

[SnowyHog]

Re Royal Marines, I think I remember reading somewhere a bit of an issue in WW1 that they had beards in the trenches, and this was okay as they where aligned to the Navy, and the Army maybe would have prefered just a moustache. 

[hanes teulu]

If discharged 25 Apr 1884 can he be held under military detention if a civilian?