Author Topic: Any Evidence for Birth in Dublin of Sarah Roche, ca 1878-1882.  (Read 531 times)

Offline Wexflyer

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Any Evidence for Birth in Dublin of Sarah Roche, ca 1878-1882.
« on: Thursday 09 January 25 06:42 GMT (UK) »
I have searched in vain for any documentary evidence for the birth of Sarah Magdalene Roche, supposedly in Dublin, in the 1878-1882 period. Her birthplace is given as Dublin in three English census returns (1891, 1911 and 1921). As an adopted child, her birth name may not have been Roche, but there is reason to think that it was.

Details of the information I have on Sarah are given below:

The first sight I have found of Sarah is in the 1891 English census in Bootle, in the household of John Roche and his wife, Catherine Hayes (married Birkenhead 1869). John was variously a mariner and dock laborer. Sarah is said to be 11 years old, born Dublin.

I have not located Sarah in the 1881 census. John and “Kate” Roche may be the couple of that name in Kirkdale in that census, but this is uncertain.

Catherine (Hayes) Roche died in July 1896 and was buried on 29 July 1896 in Ford cemetery.

In the December quarter of 1896 Sarah married Jenkin Owen Williams in W. Derby SRD. A marriage at this date may indicate that Sarah was born earlier than 1878. Jenkin Williams was a captain in the merchant marine. There is quite a lot of information available on Captain Williams as he ran an ocean liner, the SS Southwark, aground in the Strait of Belle Isle in 1908.

In 1901 Sarah appears in the census in Bootle as Sarah M. Williams, with her father, but without her husband, who was presumably at sea. Age stated to be 22, place of birth simply Ireland.

In the 1911 census, Sarah age 32, is still in Bootle, with her father, and stated to be born Dublin, Ireland.

Her father, John Roche, died in Bootle in January 1912. In his will he stated that Sarah was his adoptive daughter.

In the 1921 Census, Sarah is with her husband in Birkenhead, age 40, born Dublin Ireland.

Sarah died on 4th May 1925, in Cheshire, and was buried in Ford Cemetery, Liverpool.


BRENNANx2 Davidstown&Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh&Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee&Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough&Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson&Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry&Oulart;WALSH Kilrane&Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline ColC

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Re: Any Evidence for Birth in Dublin of Sarah Roche, ca 1878-1882.
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 09 January 25 10:58 GMT (UK) »
I’m not sure this will help.

WILLIAMS, SARAH  MAGDALENE  (1878) death age 47 
GRO Reference: 1925  J Quarter in BIRKENHEAD  Volume 08A  Page 634

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
(Search only shows first name the record may have a second but no Magdalene)

In the period 1876-1880 4 Roche/Roach in Ireland. None in Dublin

Sarah Jane Roach 1878 Rathdrum Co Wicklow, 33 miles from Dublin.
(Patrick, a Sailor & Sarah Roach) – nearest to Dublin.

1879 Fermoy Co Cork, Longford Co Longford, Wexford Co Wexford.

Sarah’s 1876- 1880
Dublin 1 = Sarah Carroll 1880.
Dublin North 170 - Dublin South 326

Colin
Clarke, Trickett, Orton, Lawless, Norton, Detheridge, Kirby, Goodfellow, Wagstaff, Lowe, etc.

Offline CBGenealogy

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Re: Any Evidence for Birth in Dublin of Sarah Roche, ca 1878-1882.
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 14 January 25 22:29 GMT (UK) »
Have you considered births of unknown Roche baby girls in places like the Rotunda?

My great-grandfather was registered this way but I was able to match him to a baptismal record to confirm. I wrote a blog about it here: https://cbgenealogy.ie/the-rotunda-strikes-again/

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Any Evidence for Birth in Dublin of Sarah Roche, ca 1878-1882.
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 14 January 25 23:54 GMT (UK) »
I’m not sure this will help.

WILLIAMS, SARAH  MAGDALENE  (1878) death age 47 
GRO Reference: 1925  J Quarter in BIRKENHEAD  Volume 08A  Page 634


Yes, that is her death, and I have her will.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown&Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh&Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee&Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough&Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson&Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry&Oulart;WALSH Kilrane&Wex; WHITE Tagoat area


Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Any Evidence for Birth in Dublin of Sarah Roche, ca 1878-1882.
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 14 January 25 23:56 GMT (UK) »
I

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
(Search only shows first name the record may have a second but no Magdalene)

In the period 1876-1880 4 Roche/Roach in Ireland. None in Dublin

Sarah Jane Roach 1878 Rathdrum Co Wicklow, 33 miles from Dublin.
(Patrick, a Sailor & Sarah Roach) – nearest to Dublin.


Colin

I checked that Wicklow birth, in Wicklow town . No obvious connection to my Roches.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown&Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh&Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee&Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough&Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson&Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry&Oulart;WALSH Kilrane&Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Any Evidence for Birth in Dublin of Sarah Roche, ca 1878-1882.
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 14 January 25 23:57 GMT (UK) »
Have you considered births of unknown Roche baby girls in places like the Rotunda?


Yes, I examined all 'Unknown" Roche births in the relevant timeframe. All were legitimate, with no obvious or any link to Co. Wexford.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown&Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh&Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee&Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough&Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson&Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry&Oulart;WALSH Kilrane&Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Any Evidence for Birth in Dublin of Sarah Roche, ca 1878-1882.
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 15 January 25 00:01 GMT (UK) »
Just to comment.

I realize this may be impossible to solve, but at the same time I believe this Sarah must have a connection to her adoptive father's family from Wexford. Subsequent developments seem to indicate that. 

Vary unusual case. Three adoptions in a row, in three successive generations.
First Sarah Roche was adopted by John Roche of Bootle, but originally from Wexford.
Then Sarah Roche adopted a Roche from Wexford,
And then Sarah's adoptive daughter adopted Sarah's actual daughter!
BRENNANx2 Davidstown&Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh&Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee&Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough&Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson&Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry&Oulart;WALSH Kilrane&Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline alpinecottage

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Re: Any Evidence for Birth in Dublin of Sarah Roche, ca 1878-1882.
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 15 January 25 14:31 GMT (UK) »
Interesting that Patrick Roach from Wicklow was also a sailor, like John in Bootle....

Were the family Catholic?  Magdalene may have been a confirmation name. My great grandfather converted to Catholicism about this time in Manchester and acquired a new middle name that he used from that time until his death.

At risk of sounding critical of the Irish, the BMD records are not 100% correct for this period. My own grandfather was born in about 1880 in Galway but his birth does not seem to have been registered at the time though he was baptised.  Several of his siblings were baptised before birth (if you believe the paper records) too!! 

Perrins - Manchester and Staffs
Honan - Manchester and Ireland
Hogg - Manchester 19 cent
Anderson - Newcastle mid 19 cent
Boullen - London then Carlisle then Manchester
Comer - Manchester and Galway

Offline Sinann

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Re: Any Evidence for Birth in Dublin of Sarah Roche, ca 1878-1882.
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 15 January 25 16:33 GMT (UK) »
Have you considered she might connect through one of the female surnames in the family.

I'm surprised when I find a child 'born' before they were baptised in some of my families but it's not the fault of the BMD records the registrar could only record the information given.

My grandfather managed to get through life with no birth cert or marriage cert, he does have a death cert thanks to his son. So BMD wise he didn't exist until he died.