Author Topic: Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?  (Read 199 times)

Offline Annbee

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Hello Military-Experts,

I have tracked down, I think, the area where my Great Uncle Alec Beach (Regt. no 624941) was killed near St Julien 4th October 1917. I poured through heaps of diary entries and trench maps and certainly got the sense of the activities (and the horrors) at the time. And a couple of years ago, Andy and Jim were v. helpful educating me about weapons and types of barrages etc. as well as where Alec was initially buried before being re-interred in a CWG plot. So that's all good.

Yesterday I bought a book "The Honourable Artillery Company 1914-1919" (edited by MAJOR G. GOOLD WALKER), hoping it might contain a reference to Alec's death - and it did!

Referring to the 4th October 1917:
" The following day was one that will live in the memories of all who were up with the guns. A barrage was laid down just before daylight and continued intermittently for several hours. During this time we came under severe counter battery fire, and one shell burst on the light railway track against which all the guns were in position. This unfortunate shell killed Sergt. G. A. Frymann and Bdr. Beach, and wounded many others. The Boche prisoners were pouring back in small, unaccompanied groups, and it must be recorded that one German N.C.O., seeing the plight of the Battery, organized stretcher parties to assist in evacuating the wounded to the dressing station at Alberta. The guns were kept in action (the rate of fire being fortunately reduced) by, in some cases, one man per gun. Practically every day barrages were fired, and the difficulty in bringing the ammunition up to the Battery position was acute. This was mainly dumped by the roadside at night, and the gunners at the Battery position fetched it in the early morning with the aid of the light railway, although much was buried by shell fire in the muddy road. This was afterwards unearthed and salvaged by a working party from a well-known cavalry regiment. On October 9th the Battery had another strenuous day, the attack being on a six-mile front. The barrage started at 4.30 a.m. and almost continuous firing kept up until 6.30 p.m. After this a new S.O.S. line was laid, as the advance made by our troops extended to a depth of over 2000 yards on the north of our position. The 10th was spent in replenishing ammunition, H.E. being the predominating shell.
(Source:  HONOURABLE ARTILLERY COMPANY IN THE GREAT WAR 1914-1919 (pp. 605-606). Kindle Edition.)

In the book's honours list, it says Alec died at Stroombeek. I have tracked down where the Coys were first gathered, at Flora Cottage, which was right next to Stroombeek Canal. Alec was with the 126th Bde and for this period was artillery supporting the 48th South Midlands Div, and the 126th was one of 4 Coys on the first day of the major offensive of Passchendaele.

My question is: would Alec have been part of the Standing Barrage or the part of the Creeping Barrage and which weapon was he operating? The book says Alec's artillery was in a line of others, adjacent to a light railway. (Which I'm assuming was built specifically to hasten ammunition delivery.) Does this set-up, of being in a line next to the railway, mean that Alec was operating one of the 4.5 Howitzers (of which they only had 6 covering the whole division according to war diaries operations records). The Division had use of 21 18 pounders too.

Thanks for reading this far, very much appreciated.

Image shows the location of Flora Cottage where the 48th assembled for that operation, and Stroombeek canal, N.E of St Julien.

Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON

Offline jim1

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Re: Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 29 April 25 12:14 BST (UK) »
Do you know his Bde. & Bty.?
Have you located the war diary?
On the face of it it sounds like a standing barrage as a creeping
barrage wouldn't last for hours.
The war diary should state the Bty. gun allocation.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline Annbee

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Re: Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 29 April 25 13:22 BST (UK) »
Hello Jim, it was you who cracked the mystery of which Division he was attached to and the Brigade he was with - that was a couple of years ago.

He was with the Honourable Artillery Company, 2/B, which arrived in France June 1917 (from memory now). The HAC had become the 126 Bde by that point (which you'd found). From various War Diaries concerning the 48th Div, it looks like they were moved around to whichever operations needed their artillery backup. So it was only a few days before the start of the Passchendaele campaign that the 126 and 291 Bdes were allocated to their post.

A problem with war Diaries is that the ones I've been sped-read through do not specify the 126 Bd per se - it feels a bit like the HAC men are independent operatives who don't have a good handle on record keeping! (Lt. Colonel Clifford was their boss). I've pieced together a bit from here and a bit from there to form the picture of where they ended up on the battle front. So I may have erred, but I think I've got it more or less right.

The 3 diaries where I've found info in are: 48th (SM) DIVISION (GS) (Diary, Orders, Reports, Maps etc), 48th DIVISION A & Q BRANCH (Diary, Casualties, Honours List), 143rd INFANTRY BDE (Diary, Orders, Operations, Maps, Narratives, Report Qs, Report Answers). I looked at a few others but they were self-inflicted red herrings.

The filters I used for the Diaries were St Julien and October 1917, especially the 4th. But I've also looked at movements in the month before and after to see what was happening and who was where when. Interestingly, I suspect my Grandfather was at, or near, the same location as his cousin Alec, serving in the Mobile Veterinary Corps. (That's another whole lot research to do one day - my Grandfather is even harder to trace).

I'm attaching the orders which defined the groupings of the attack and also the available artillery. You posted me this originally :) It's part of the 48th South Midlands Diary.



Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON

Offline Annbee

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Re: Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 29 April 25 13:36 BST (UK) »
Quote
On the face of it it sounds like a standing barrage as a creeping
barrage wouldn't last for hours.

BTW that is what I also thought, assuming whoever wrote that in the book was remembering correctly.

In the preface is:

"The story which is to follow is the work of many pens. Some narratives show the point of view of the unit-commander. Others are written by those whose military status and viewpoint were quite different. There will thus be no rigid uniformity in the manner of presenting facts or opinions."

(Source) HONOURABLE ARTILLERY COMPANY IN THE GREAT WAR 1914-1919 (p. 10). Kindle Edition.

It looks like a great book, I have to say, if interested in the HAC.

It also says "Quot homines, tot sententić" or "As many men, so many opinions". I recently wrote a whole website about one of my Uncles who was in the RAF and became a POW for 5 years. In listening to many audio interviews, and comparing them to my (late) Uncle's recall of that time, and then comparing them to known events and facts of that time... that's when I learnt memory is a slippery beast!
Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON


Offline Andy J2022

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Re: Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 29 April 25 16:56 BST (UK) »
Ann, I'm not sure I can help with your question about whether Alec's battery were firing the main standing barrage or the creeping barrage. Obviously the key to answering this is knowing what guns they were equipped with, but as I mentioned in reply#14 of the 'A WW1 Private described as General Labourer' thread two usually reliable sources disagree on the point, with Chris Baker at the Long, Long Trail saying they had 4.5inch howitzers, and Major AF Beck in his 1936 book Order of Battle of Divisions Part 2A. The Territorial Force Mounted Divisions and the 1st-Line Territorial Force Divisions (page 24) saying that they trained on 15 pounders but by the time they deployed to France they had been re-equipped with 18 pdrs.

Lt Col Clifford's group comprised of two brigades, 216 and 291, and we know the group was tasked with both the standing and creeping barrage, so they must have had batteries of howitzers and batteries of 18 pdrs. However Chris Baker says that both brigades were equipped with howitzers, so maybe his sources are less reliable than the Beck book, or he was looking at a different point in time. We know that the Gunners underwent a lot of reorganisation and regroupping during the war.

Perhaps one way of resolving the issue would be to ask the HAC Museum if they know the answer.

Offline Andy J2022

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Re: Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 29 April 25 17:51 BST (UK) »
I found a further source concerning the 2B Battery of the HAC in WW1. It's another book* by the same author you mentioned,  Goold Walker. Here's a quote from pages 271-2
Quote
The second-line Batteries, “2/A” and “2/B," were formed as reserve units in September, 1914. For nearly three years they served on the east coast of England, training their men, sending out drafts for the first-line Batteries on the Eastern Front, and providing many candidates for commissions in the Royal Artillery. It was not until June, 1917, that, armed with Field Artillery equipment, they proceeded to France as part of the 126th Army Field Brigade and served through the whole of the long-drawn-out struggle of Ypres-Passchendaele until December, 1917, when they were withdrawn for re-equipment
Unfortunately the author doesn't state with what they were re-equipped and what 'Field Artillery' it replaced.

*G. Goold Walker, D.S.O., M.C. The Honourable Artillery Company 1537-1926 London 1926 John Lane The Bodley Head Ltd 
(It's available on the Internet Archive)

Offline jim1

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Re: Alec Beach Bombardier - Howitzer or 18 pounder? Is my assessment right?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 29 April 25 19:11 BST (UK) »
The problem here is that there is no diary covering the war post Jan. 1917.
The Div. (48th.) diary doesn't go into detail about where sections of the Bde.
were positioned only on the left of the barrage.
They did have Howitzers as they are mentioned in the 48/Div. diary.
As Andy says a bit of a forlorn hope.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline Annbee

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Quote
Perhaps one way of resolving the issue would be to ask the HAC Museum if they know the answer.

Thank you Andy, and thank you Jim, it does look like there might be no needle in the haystack to find. But I may - just may - try to contact the HAC, even though I came across a page specifically for researchers which says they sold on their records to Find My Past and don't hold formal military service records anymore. Which I can understand, who needs us family researchers constantly harassing what is probably a fairly small organisation.

In the past, during a subscription, I've looked at Alec's records on Find My Past but clearly they didn't tell me anything I didn't already know as I didn't download them, and now I'd have to pay for a sub again.

But now I'm curious about what equipment they used - so they may still hear from me!

Here is the link I found for people wanting to research the Honourable Artillery Company in WW1.

https://hac.org.uk/images/PDFs/20210623_-_Researchers_Guide_-_Members_of_the_HAC_in_the_First_World_War.pdf

Warwickshire: BEACH/BACHE, COX Gloucestershire: HAIL, VOYCE, TURNER, WINCHCOMBE, PREEN, Worcestershire: WEBB, CHARE, TYLER, Fife: FOWLER, JOHNSTONE, MELVILLE, Lanarkshire/Dunbartonshire: GRAHAM, CHALMERS, LANG, BISHOP, Sweden/Hamburg/London/Birmingham: HOKANSON

Offline Andy J2022

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Yes I suggest you approach the HAC as a military historian, rather than a family historian. Clearly the records on FindMyPast are of no help in working out what guns his battery were equipped with. BTW I have copies of all the HAC documents shown on FindMyPast, so let me know if you want any of them. I live in London, so if you like, I can pop in to Armoury House at some point and ask in person.