Ship owners - Sunderland & South Shields

[helenmcd]

Now how is this for "one upmanship" Henry?  I have a Havelock Longcase Clock!

You lucky, lucky, lucky - thing The clock will have been made by another ancestor, George Havelock, I think - brief pause while I check - Yes, it was George. I am very envious. Any chance of a photo?

Helen

[helenmcd]

Hello Helen

I am also a descendant of Anne Havelock, daughter of Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton and Thomas Havelock.
Sophia Louisa's origins are very difficult to trace.

There are two claims from the same publisher, Nichols and Sons, one year apart (essentially identical claims) the first 1881 and the second in 1882 that Sophia Louisa's father Thomas Martin was the secretary to the Marquis of Granby.  The first claim was published in 1881 in "The Baronetage and Knightage" by Joseph Foster and the second "The Peerage of the British Empire for 1882: With the Orders of Knighthood".

I contacted the staff of His Grace David Manners, present Duke of Rutland, to verify the claim(s).
The Archivist, His Grace, plus an historian currently working with His Grace all of whom  "have both extensive and intensive knowledge of the correspondence of the Great Marquis of Granby, and of his son Charles when he was Marquis  have not come across a Thomas Martin in any official capacity".

If you have a birth or baptism record for Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton,  I would really appreciate knowing the location and date of her birth and confirmation of the names of both her parents. I am about to consult an expert in genealogy and information that you could provide would be most helpful.

Once I have new information about Sophia Louisa Martin/Egerton and her father I will share it with you.

Kindest regards.

BBB

I know exactly what you mean regarding trying to find Sophia's origins and antecedents and I am very sorry to disappoint you but I only have the records of marriage, death and a reference to husband Thomas applying for financial help in her regard.

it seems there are only tiny, tantalising hints and nothing concrete so far. Someone told me that she may have been illegitimate but whether that was any more than speculation I could not ascertain as I never heard any more from said person, whose details I cannot now recall.

I did employ a researcher, years ago, to try and find the births and baptisms of Ann and her sister, without result at the time. It was through help from a couple of other researchers and Marion Woolgar, who does immense and invaluable research into the Woolgar families, mainly from Sussex; that the birth, baptism and other records were discovered.

I wish you luck and also wish I could contribute to the research costs but it's not possible at present.

Just thought I should mention that I funded research into finding the will of Thomas Havelock's father but without success.

If I ever find anything more I will happily Share it with you.

Good luck and thank you for the comment

Regards and more

[Cherielynn]

I was going to try to reply with a few thoughts tonight but will have to be tomorrow. I found an 1872 newspaper article about property rather former property. Lots of fun I will share. But in the process I read saw and read the rootsweb 1999 post by a Jay Thompson. to follow

[Cherielynn]

How do i refer to a post - who is Jay Thompson?

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DUR-NBL/1999-11/0942977217

[Cherielynn]

Does any one know this 1999 Jay Thompson?
From: "wallycat" <wallycat@albedo.net>
Subject: Enoch and Tamar as Christian Names
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:06:57 -0500

If you try 'Enoch DONKERLY' on the IGI, you'll get 41 of them and 29 are 1600's and 1700's.
Most are Lancashire, one Durham, one Northumberland, a few London.

Try 'Enoch THOMPSON' on the IGI and you'll get a mixed lot in those centuries for Lancashire,
Stafford, Warwick, Lincoln, Durham.

Are these counties far enough north for you?

One of those Enoch DONKERLY's (don't yet know which) may be my GGGGgrandfather.
The IGI has him as Enoch DANKALY at his
marriage to Eden CAMPBELL
on 3 January 1759
at South Shields St. Hilda.

Their daughter Ann (DARKERLY {bemused grin and sigh}according to the IGI)
married Evan THOMPSON
on 3 November 1794
at South Shields St. Hilda.

Ann's and Evan's son Enoch Donkerly THOMPSON was christened
6 June 1796 at
South Shields St. Hilda.

The name Enoch then skips a generation and appears for the last time in this family as the name
of EDT's eldest grandson John Enoch THOMPSON (whom I cannot find in the IGI even though
I know that JET and all his siblings including Ernest Evan THOMPSON aka Ernest Thompson
SETON lived in South Shields until they emigrated to Canada in 1866).

The name Tamar does not, to my current knowlege anyway, appear in this family.

Regards,
Jay Thompson

[Cherielynn]

Julian and Westoe and all other relation contacts and relations: I had a malignant nodule removed, successfully, July 23. I will share the details but this has spurred more sharing of genealogy and getting documents and histories sent to where they will survive for anyone who wishes to enjoy my collection even with its failures. Mother, through the Kidd Lee Thompson Logan etc, passed last year and she loved hearing about all these folks. for mother.

I have been in touch with the curator of the archives at the Academy for the Love of learning who have their Ernest Thompson Seton connection. He shared a transcription of a very interesting piece they have on file. (He noted everything was sent to Library and Archives Canada in Ottawa. They only have few copies of info left there in NM)

"...There is another photocopy of a typed page in our archives with information taken from "old Bible  in possession of C. H. Lee, with another name following on the next line: Cardiff.
The document includes these dates:

Enoch D. Thompson & Mary Logan married at Shields, March 10, 1819.
Ann, daughter of the above born April 23, 1820
Joseph Logan born September 6, 1821
Mary Anne born July 30, 1824
Jane born October 21, 1826
Jane born June 28, 1829
Evan born January 21, 1838

Mary Anne died January 1864
Jane died June 5, 1827
Evan died October 1864

1837 Joseph Logan, Grandfather of the above children died January 18, aged 75
1840 Ann Logan, Grandmother of the above children died August 15, aged 77..."

So now I am chomping at the bit.

I am the type of person who would freely share everything that is in my possession to share - freely.

Where is that bible and how about a digital photo, high resolution.

Also I have participated in DNA for genealogy testing with three companies, two which can compare and match to define family groups. I also tested mother on her death bed. One clear match came through of these lines of family. A man who currently lives in Northern Ireland near the locations of our early Kidd and Hutton families has Kidd in his surnames of ancestors. We were able to identify which Kidd family, Carrie's husband descends from.

Now if we found also a male line Thompson maybe we could learn exactly who Evan Thompson is?

Or a Lee or Havelock or another Kidd - but wait we actually have some of all of those don't we.

[Westoe]

Thank you, Cherie Lynn. We didn't have actual birthdates for some of these, just baptismal dates from the online BT's. I will make some additions to your post in this other colour.

"...There is another photocopy of a typed page in our archives with information taken from "old Bible  in possession of C. H. Lee, with another name following on the next line: Cardiff.

Did your source send you an actual image of the page? The fact that it is typed means that it is *not* contemporary to the events described i.e. compiled at some later date, so we must be aware of the possibility of memory errors in these dates. And tho' the Bible was "in possession of" CHL, it was not necessarily his or his parents'. Otherwise we would expect it to also contain the dates of Henry Lee's birth, date of Ann Thompson/Henry Lee marriage, and dates of birth for CHL and his siblings, plus some dates for their marriages and progeny. So it should be accepted only tentatively.

However, there *is* the possibility that this typed list was compiled by CHL's first cousin William, an energetic chronicler, and given to CHL during one of WST's visits to England from Canada. It makes sense that someone of his generation would have that information through first person contact with some of the named parties. On the other hand, much of WST's chronicling was done late in life and some memory errors do occur in his other writings. Also, it is then surprising that other copies of that list have not surfaced over here. So again, I say, this document should be accepted only tentatively.

A third possibility, since you got the information from New Mexico, is that WST took the information from the Bible (which may or may not still exist) during a visit to his cousin CHL, typed it up and sent it to his brother Ernest, who at one time was trying to establish if he had a familial relationship to Saint Ann Seton and Monsignior Seton of New Jersey.

The document includes these dates:

Enoch D. Thompson & Mary Ann Logan married at Shields, March 10, 1819.
Ann, daughter of the above born April 23, 1820, bap'd 19 May, 1820, So. Sh. St. Hilda
Joseph Logan born September 6, 1821, bap'd 5 Oct. 1821, So. Sh. St. Hilda
Mary Anne born July 30, 1824, bap'd 25 Aug, 1824 So. Sh. St. Hilda
Jane born October 21, 1826, bap'd 22 Nov 1826, So. Sh. St. Hilda
Jane born June 28, 1829, bap'd 29 July, 1829, So. Sh. St. Hilda
Evan born January 21, 1838, at 8 a.m.

Mary Anne died January 1864, bur'd 10 Jan 1864, St. James, Liverpool
Jane died June 5, 1827, bur'd 11 June, 1827, So. Sh. St. Hilda
Evan died October 1864, bur'd 8 Oct. 1864, So. Sh. St. Hilda

1837 Joseph Logan, Grandfather of the above children died January 18, aged 75, bur'd 21 Jan 1837
1840 Ann Logan, Grandmother of the above children died August 15, aged 77...", bur'd 19 Aug 1840
both buried Tynemouth General Cemetery

Cheers,
Westoe

[Flattybasher9]

Have you had a look through here :-

http://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/Shipbuilders.html

Regards

Malky

[Westoe]

Thank you, Malky. Very few of this extended family's vessels were actually built on the Tyne. It does get confusing because there was a prominent shipbuilder named Joseph L. Thompson, who is not the same person as the Joseph Logan Thompson named in this thread.

Cheers,
Westoe