TERRELL - ANGOVE - TRENGOVE

[Anne Wilson]

Hi there
I'm an aussie tracing her Cornish roots and hope some kind soul can help me find the birth of my gggrandfather Thomas Henry TERRELL. His parents were Thomas and Sarah nee ANGOVE and according to his Australian death cert. he was born in Redruth. However I have a discrepancy in his birth year as his marriage cert (Australian) says he was born abt 1832 but his DC says abt 1828.
Can't find anything on IGI that matches even using all the normal variants of TERRELL.
The family came to Australia in Nov 1841 aboard the "Waterloo" along with another relation (I'm assuming!!) Samuel TERREL and his wife Sarah nee TRENGROVE. Have found their marriage in Gwennap parish on 3rd August 1831.
Any suggestions/help really appreciated   
Annie
P.S I stupidly posted this originally in the "Cornwall Resources" page!!! so am correcting my error.

[osprey]

The only Thomas Henry Terrill or variant that I can see were both baptised   in Redruth, St Uny
Thomas Henry bp 1/1/1832 son Samuel and Sarah
Thomas Henry bp 19/6/1833 son of John and Eliza
 
opc might be able to help
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/Par_new/q_s/redruth.php

[welsh lady]

Possible in 1841 Redruth Cornwall
H0107/143/14 Folio 52 Page 49

Eliza Terrell,30
Eliza Terrell,15,Mine Girl
John Terrell,15,Tin Mine Lab
Jane Terrell,10
Thomas Terrell,8
Elizabeth Terrell,6
Johannah Terrell,4
William Terrell,1
All born in County

Adults ages are rounded down in 1841 so Eliza could be 30-35.And Eliza and John 15-20.So dont think shes their Mother.Possibly parents have died .Cant find the Thomas above in 1851 census.Could Samuel be Thomass brother and takes him with him to Aus.

Extracted Record off IGI
Thomas Henry Terrill
Christ-01st Jan 1832 Redruth
Parents-Samuel Terrill and Sarah
(possibly named their child after his brother?)

Welsh Lady

[osprey]

there's a marriage for Samuel Terrel and Sarah Trengrove 3/8/1831 in Gwennap
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/Par_new/e_g/gwennap.php

But there are also marriages for a Samuel Terrill in Redruth, St Uny
to Sarah Hodge 24/12/1828
to Mary Trewartha 20/7/1833
to Grace Hocking 25/12/1834
could be 3 different men or the same one three times!

Think I might be tempted to go with age at marriage - he would have given that after all, whereas someone else gave his age at death. Whatever, it's confusing and I hope the opcs can help.
 

[krisesjoint]

Hi Annie,

I have been playing about with this for ages and I really think a mistake has been made with people providing the information in Oz being unsure of the facts. This happened a lot with information on death certificates not being verified, therefore is only as good as the person who provided the information. Mistakes often appear on these death certs. The family do not appear in the 1841 census as they were already in Australia, (Waterloo arrived 9 Nov 1840 not 1841)

http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/fh/passengerlists/1840Waterloo.htm

TERRILL Thomas Henry baptised 1 Jan 1832 Redruth St Uny parents Samuel and Sarah

It looks to me like this baptism to Samuel and Sarah is your man and in Australia some confusion as to her name Trengrove/Angove. His father was not recorded at the time of marriage in SA

TERRELL Thomas 22 Single Father not recorded = TREVASKIS Mary Jane 18 Single father not recorded 25 Apr 1854 Trinity Church [Adelaide] Dist Ade 21/82

Guess they must have been interstate for first 12 years as first birth I see in SA in 1866 (Then we have 7 births in SA, most list him as Thomas Henry so looks like the right chap - last birth in 1884 30 years after marriage - not bad!)

Cheers Kris 

[Anne Wilson]

Thanks so much to each of you for your time.
This is a real conundrum for me Kris as I have all the Aussie records which I believe indicate there are definitely 2 distinct families, although I'm assuming related.
Samuel Terrel and Sarah Trengove went on to have a further 5 children in Oz so that establishes 1 family.
However on Thomas Henry Jnr's DC, his parents are noted as Thomas Henry and Sarah nee Angove which to me indicates there is actually a 2nd family. To make the riddle more interesting, I can't find the deaths of either of the parents in Oz!! I have a cousin who is also researching her line of the Terrells and she has hit a brick wall also in trying to find Thomas Henry Jnr's birth details.
I think that Samuel and Thomas Henry Snr are most probably brothers....what do you think?
Also, from past research, I believe the birth for Thomas Henry in 1832 is to Samuel and Sarah HODGE so I don't think this is my Thomas.
Annie 

[osprey]

Who was the informant on the death certificate?

[krisesjoint]

Hi Annie,

It strikes me there is some confusion over Sarah's name which I don't think can be easily ignored. Trengrove/Angove. Mentioned in shipping and I expect also in BISA (Can't check that easily). I see the births listed for 5 further children to this couple - no Thomas. Some interesting variants for Sarah's name but no Angove (Trengove, Tringove, Trinjova) So we can see the r is often left out. Think of saying this name with an accent (of tears in your eyes) an I can see Angove being heard instead of the correct name.

The information provided on the death certificate is only what the undertaker was told at the time of the burial. Osprey, I would expect the undertaker will be the informant. The person who gave the information to the undertaker is not mentioned. This information was not verified. The information was provided to the undertaker, by the person organising the funeral - usually spouse or child

The same thing happens today. At a time of extreme emotional turmoil we are still asked to provide this information. Fortunately today it is checked before the cert is issued. It wasn't then. What the undertaker was told (or what he thought he heard) was entered. Though we are always happy to see an ancestor made it to 1908 to give us this information, it cannot be taken as absolute fact.

I was present with somebody who at this terrible time actually got a little confused with where he was giving his name and his grandfathers name. He gave his own name. I later mentioned "so you were named after your grandfather ehh" He looked at me with a blank look on his face and said  "no my grandfather's name was William Henry" He didn't believe me when I told him he had given the undertaker his name in answer to that question and phoned the undertaker who confirmed it was what he he said. The undertaker did say that it would have been found before the cert was issued but this did not happen back then. What the undertaker provided is what was entered on the Cert.

Of course I may be wrong but there do seem to be a horrible lot of coincidences here.....Kris 

[Anne Wilson]

Hi Osprey, Kris
I think you may be right Kris. I had another look at the DC, the informant was one of his sons, Walter, and there had been a certified alteration to Thomas' mother's name. It was originally listed as Mary Trevaskis who was Thomas' WIFE. The alteration said this should read as Sarah Angove.
Following this line, perhaps Walter gave HIS parents names instead of THOMAS' parents but the father's name wasn't altered??
If this is the case, then it is very possible Samuel and Sarah ARE the correct parents.
Thank you so much for reminding me not to keep a one track mind in this business LOL
Now I need to follow this new line of enquiry.
The passenger list says there were 3 sons accompanying Samuel & Sarah so I need to check my files to see where I got the Sarah HODGE details for Thomas Henry's birth in 1832.
I've also found the birth of a John Williams Terrrill christened 12th March 1837 in Redruth, with parents Samuel & Sarah so he may be one of the 3.
If the IGI doesn't list the mother's maiden name, is there any other avenue to persue to esablish these details?
I can't thank you enough for all your help.
Annie