Catherine and William Venables

[osprey]

this looks like the family in 1891 - ages vary a little from 1871
10 Nelson St, Swansea RG12/4478 folio 104 pg 30
Thomas Thomas head mar 65 mate
Margaret wife 66(?)
David son widower 42 tinman
Margaret dau 35 teacher
John son 29 teacher
William son 22 teacher
John Rees son-in-law 25 mason b. Swansea
Mary Rees dau 25
Margaret Rees granddau 5 months b. Swansea
all born Port Talbot except where stated. Nelson Street is no distance from Park Street. If you look up on Multimap, search for postcode SA1 3QE. Thomas being recorded as a mate is good news, as there should be records of his mate's ticket.
3 possible marriages for a Mary Thomas to a John Rees in Swansea registration district between 1887 and 1891.

1901 14 Trafalgar St, Swansea RG13/5075 folio 34 pg 20
Margaret Thomas head widow 74 living on own means b. Taibach
David son  widower 54 living on own means b. Port Talbot
Margaret dau 42 school mistress b. Port Talbot
William son 33 assistant school master b. Port Talbot
Margaret Daniel granddau 18 domestic servant b. Swansea
Henry Daniel grandson 11 scholar b. Swansea
Margaret Rees granddau 10 b. Swansea
Annie Daniel grand dau 9 b. Swansea

marriage registration
Annie Thomas dec qtr 1879 Swansea 11a pg 783 with Evan Morris Daniel on same page
1881 census RG11/5357 folio 140 pg 29 - in Park Street!
1891 census RG12/4483 folio 72 pg 12

If only there was a Venables staying with one of these families! Can't remember if you've ever mentioned witnesses on Catherine's marriage certificate. Do any of this family's names appear?

[kassie]

Hi Osprey,

I spent a few hours in the library yesterday but it was not very productive for me but I did tell someone about Rootschat, they have been researching for a long time and never heard of it.  So that was my good deed for the day.

The witnesses on Marriage certificate of Catherine and William are: David Nicholls and William Harry.

If Thomas Thomas occ. was mate.  How would I access the records to find his mates ticket?

cheers

Kassie

[osprey]

Oh, I'd so hoped that one of the witnesses would be an obvious family member - bother!

The records seem to depend on where the vessel was registered - some in the West Glam Archives in Swansea
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/westglamorganarchives/index.cfm?articleid=10635

some in the Glamorgan archives in Cardiff and some at the National Archives in Kew
 http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/merchant/step1.htm

There's probably info somewhere on the boards - occupation board possibly?l

[JAP]

Hi kassie and osprey,

Some thoughts.

Lots of wonderful information has been provided - and may well turn out to be totally relevant.

But, going back to basics ...

There aren't really a lot of proven facts on which to trace Catherine backwards, are there (sorry to be a wet blanket!).

*Catherine Howell VENABLES (the correct Cath as she is described as wife of William VENABLES carpenter) died in Cardiff on 15 Nov 1910; there was an inquest held 16 Nov 1910.
Possible lines of inquiry (through the local records office?) might be - has the inquest report survived; is there a newspaper report of the inquest; is there a death notice/obituary?

*There was no middle name or initial on her marriage cert or on the 1881, 1891 or 1901 censuses.

*Catherine's age varied (marriage cert, censuses, death cert) - circa 1850 +/- 2
Catherine was older than her husband, William Edmund VENABLES, and might have slightly understated her age.

*On her 1878 Swansea marriage cert (Cath's residence 13 Park St), Catherine's father was listed as Thomas THOMAS, Harbourmaster.
No Thomas THOMAS, Harbourmaster can be found.  Was Catherine simply "gilding the lily" as to his occupation?  Another question might be whether her father really was a Thomas THOMAS (people have been known to invent a father on a marriage cert.)  Her mother's name is not known although there are some possible/likely census entries for a Thomas THOMAS, wife Margaret.   

*In the 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses, Catherine's birthplace was always given as Port Talbot.
There is the following birth - Catharine (sic) Howell THOMAS, b Neath (this included Port Talbot), Dec quarter 1849, Volume 26, Page 455
If this birth cert were obtained, it would show the name and occupation of the father, the name and maiden surname of the mother, and the address where the birth took place (especially whether it was in Port Talbot).
This could help in tracing this Cath THOMAS in the 1851 census and then possibly in 1861 and 1871; this might well help to prove whether or not she is the Cath who m VENABLES.

So, for what they are worth, those are my thoughts i.e. get the birth cert; look for any Cath THOMAS, b Port Talbot, age 1, in 1851 (sorry I can't help); chase up the inquest/newspapers.

I'm hoping that Cath's Dad is Thomas THOMAS, Mariner/Mate, but at this stage that's a bit of a leap of faith.

Cheers,

JAP
PS: Kassie, Do you have Cath's occupation from her marriage cert?  Might help in finding her in 1871?

[kassie]

Hi Jap,

I understand that this information may not be relevant.  I will send for the birth certificate  for Catharine Howell Thomas born in Neath and start from there.  I do not think you are a wet blanket,  you are just saying what I was thinking.  I will obtain as much information as possible and when I go to Wales next year I will investigate alll possibilities.  Your help has been great I really appreciate it.  I am still a newbie at researching but I love it. 

cheers

Kassie

[kassie]

oops forgot to say that it does not give an oocupation for Catherine on the marriage certificate.  I assume she was at home with her daughter Mary.

Kassie

[JAP]

Hi again Kassie,

Yes, daughter Mary is another question!  Recorded as Mary VENABLES age 5, b Cadoxton, in 1881 though William & Catherine didn't marry until 1878.  I nearly mentioned her in my last post but thought it wouldn't contribute anything (I was trying to get down to the bare bones).  What was William's address on the mc - were both he and Catherine at the same address (13 Park St, Swansea?).  Incidentally, just for completeness, what were their ages on the mc?

Osprey has provided invaluable information - and obviously has so much local knowledge (I'm a Wales novice!).  Times like this I wish I had an Ancestry sub so I could do some census delving myself 
I'm looking forward to osprey's comments ...

Incidentally, if Thomas THOMAS the Mate does turn out to be yours, he might never have obtained a Certificate of Competency.  I guess you noticed on the Welsh Mariners site which osprey quoted that it says that it does not contain:
"Men who did not hold a certificate. Perhaps a quarter of men who sailed as Masters after 1845 never held any certificate. No Board of Trade service records cover these men who were mainly involved in the home trade (coast of Britain and near continent)."
    

JAP

[osprey]

JAP, can't help but agree with you. We need some documentation. With common surnames in Wales, you can nearly always find a family or two to fit what you think might have happened.

What strikes me as odd is Catherine living in Park Street, Swansea but not marrying in Swansea. If her family was living there, why marry elsewhere? 
Kassie, where exactly did she marry? Which church or chapel? Also, with apparently plenty of family to chose from, she has witnesses that don't appear to be related.   Knowing where they married might help find the witnesses. Is the surname Nicholls or Nicholas?

You need to get the birth certificate for Catherine and get hold of a newspaper report of the inquest in 1910 - it's more likely to contain names of family or an obituary. The Glamorgan Archive in Cardiff has the newspapers - I gave you the link at the beginning.  With more concrete info, we wouldn't be relying on guesswork, hopefully.

 


 

[Arranroots]

I guess that parents named Thomas THOMAS & Ann Margaret were far from uncommon (including in Aberavon in the IGI) ...

I don't know how helpful it is to have another opinion, but I looked at the 1851 census for Catherine THOMAS b in the vicinity of Swansea in 1850 and I would say that the one Osprey found is by far the best bet (looking only for those with fathers called Thomas narrows the possibilities to two, one of whom is a shoemaker!)

So even with common names, you can make logical deductions I think!

I also checked for Cat* HOWELL (just in case! Mum might have been slow up the aisle!!)

Look forward to hearing more

kind regards, Arranroots