TREASE/TRAIES continued...

[oldmanriver]

Hi Kerry

Yes please, I would like a copy of the death certificate of Samuel TRAIES.

I've no idea if Hannah and Ann SUTTON were the same person.  For some unknown reason, I tend to think not, but it is certainly possible and  often people dropped the 'H' when they spoke, Hannah could easily sound like Anna .  It would certainly explain why James wrote bachelor on his marriage to Ann HUTTON.

This sort of thing did happen, as Geoff and I have discovered on another of Geoff's lines.  The following tale is nothing to do with TRAIES but you may find it of interest and shows that you cannot believe everything you see!

Geoff's great grandfather was born in East Grinstead in 1853.  The birth certificate gave Michael and Ann MAYNARD (formerly PETERS) as the parents.  We found the family on the 1861 census for East Grinstead and then looked at the 1851 to find the father, Michael MAYNARD.  We found Michael MAYNARD, unmarried, at nearby West Hoathly in the home of his brother and family.  Also visiting that house on census night were Ann PETERS, unmarried, and her one year old daughter Eliza PETERS.  We thought that Michael MAYNARD  had married this Ann PETERS, sometime between the census of 1851 and the birth of Geoff's great grandfather in 1853, but we could find no trace of the marriage. 

The 1861 and 1871 census found the family increasing in size.  Michael and Ann MAYNARD were said to be husband and wife and all the children including the eldest girl, (down as Eliza PETERS in 1851) was down as Eliza MAYNARD in 1861.  Eliza was married in 1868 as Eliza Peters MAYNARD with Michael MAYNARD as father.

We finally found the marriage of Michael MAYNARD and Ann PETERS.  They had married in 1872 in Brighton after living in East Grinstead and pretending to be married for 20 years!

We thought that probably one of them was already married and they couldn't marry until their previous partner had died.  However, when the certificate came back it clearly said 'bachelor' and 'spinster'.  Witnesses at the marriage were Eliza and her husband. 

Why Michael and Ann waited so long before tying the knot is anyones guess!!

Bernice

[kerryb]

No problem Bernice will send them to you.

It would be a neat little theory that Hannah and Ann were the same woman tying up the fact we can't find a marriage for James and Hannah and can't find her death.  Again the baptism of the other children might throw light on it.

this really is a pesky one and I have stories just like that one Bernice.  They only did it to test us or thats what I reckon anyway.

Kerry

[gardenerbob]

I'd like to give my welcome to Samantha and congratulate her on her interesting findings. I've been trying to work out how I can best help out - I can reach LMA, Westminster and PRO easily - Hackney less so.

In his enlistment papers James Traies states he was born in Stratford Le Bow in October 1816. This is very specific and is probably reliable. In the 1851 census, he gives Mile End as his place of birth. The next son Henry who seems to have been born around 1820 variously gives Marylebone, Kensington and Mile End as his place of birth. The daughters Jane 1823?, Hannah 1825?, and Emma 1826? give Marylebone as their place of birth in the census returns.  After 1816 the next reliable information we have on James's residence is an 1833 trade directory that gives Queens Road, Bryanston Square as his address.

My web surfing indicates that Bow (Stratford le Bow) is about 1-2  miles to the East of Mile End New Town. St Johns Hackney is on Lower Clapton Rd about 1-2 miles north of Mile End New Town. Mile End New Town was an artisan area that grew very quickly beginning of 19th century and a likely place for James to work. It formed part of the parish of St Dunstans Stepney until 1841. St Dunstans' baptisms may be on IGI batch C055672 but show no appropriate baptisms.  Coverly Fields Chapel and Sion Church also appear to be in Mile End area - can't locate records for period on IGI but may be at PRO.

If James returned to West London early, the number of church registers to examine is large. I suppose St Marys, Bryanston Square where baptism records are held from 1825 is a possible start - can't see it on IGI.  The St Mary Abbots, Kensington records that Sam has uncovered look very interesting - may be there is more there to find.

I could do a visit to LMA or Westminster City Archives or PRO.  May be I could share some research with Samantha. Any suggestions welcome.

I am planning to visit PRO next week anyway and will see what I can find there for a start.

Regards,

Bob

[kerryb]

Thanks Bob

It would be great to get some answers to these intriguing questions.

Also thanks for the lesson on London geography, it totally stumps me, I only live 50 odd miles from London but have not a single clue about any of it!

The search goes on 

Kerry

[samtraies]

A warm hello to everyone!

There is a record of James living in 37 Queen Street, Bryanstone Square in 1828 (Pigot and Co's Metropolitan Directory, 1828). I think this is Marylebone. It's all rather puzzling. So he was married in Hackney in 1818 and in Marylebone by 1828, married in Hackney again in 1831, but in Bryanstone Sq by 1833.

A rootschat member (not sure who it was now) has already checked parish records for Marylebone, and we had also looked at St Marylebone Church and St Mary Bryanstone Sq.

I was aiming to check St Dunstan, Stepney and St Mary Stratford Bow next. I did attempt this at Tower Hamlets local history library but one set was almost illegible and the other seemed to have too many missing records, but they are certainly at the LMA.

[samtraies]

Actually , my partner steve works near the Guildhall Library in the city and they have a rich set of early London trade directories including Pigot's. He's going to check to see whether James is listed in any earlier ones on Monday. His listing in 1828 (Queen St. bryanstone square) is now Harrowby St , westminster (W1H) off edgeware road. Type Harrowby street into google maps and compare it to the Queen street listed in  this 1824 map of London ..

http://www.oldlondonmaps.com/greenwoodpages/greenwoodnorth18b.html

I did take a look at Harrowby street ... nothing that seems to have survived from 1828.

cheers
sam

[kerryb]

Hi Sam

That's one the same isn't it?

So that places him in Marylebone for 1828 which would fit with the later children so where were they baptised?  Hmm

Kerry

[kerryb]

Hi Sam

That's one the same isn't it?

So that places him in Marylebone for 1828 which would fit with the later children so where were they baptised? 

Kerry

Hmm, is there more than one church in that area?

Bother I meant to modify not quote 

[oldmanriver]

Hi all

I've just had a look at the 1824 London map as suggested by Sam.

I saw Queen Street off Edgeware Road in Marylebone, but almost opposite Queen Street off the other side of Edgeware Road, I noticed Star Street.  16 Star Street Paddington is where James TRAIES was living in 1842 when he married Jane BERRY.  This marriage took place in St John's Paddington.

The problem with trying to find London and Middlesex Churches is that there are so many of them and new parishes were created from bits of several of the old parishes.  St. John's Paddington was not created until the early 1830's.  Also of course so many streets have changed their names.  When St. John's, Paddington was built it was in Southwick Cresent.  This is now known as Hyde Park Cresent.
 
Some people lived in one address, but trade directories may give a different address! 

Genuki pages are good for finding out about when and how, various parishes were created, but it is still quite complicating to understand (I think so anyway).

Bernice