Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census

[JAP]

I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to get any further with the problem of whether the husband of Mary SCULLION was Thomas FITZSIMMONS or Robert FITZSIMMONS.

For my own benefit, I'll recap the findings so far (lots of work by ibi!) and ask some questions - please don't hesitate to point out any misunderstandings.
1867
Thomas FITZSIMMONS marries Mary SCULLION.  His age recorded as 22 (i.e. b ca 1845) and occupation as engine driver.
1868
Daughter Annie born.  Registered by her SCULLION grandmother.  Father's name given as Robert
1870
Son Thomas born.  Registered by his father whose name is recorded (and signed? he made his mark - see reply #14 by ibi) as Thomas.
1871 census
Mary, Annie and baby Thomas are with Mary's parents.
As far as I am aware Robert/Thomas has not yet been found in this census or in any subsequent census?
1874
Mary dies.  Husband's name given as Robert.
Who was the informant? Informant was Robert FITZSIMMONS who signed his name (see replies #11 & #14 by ibi)
ca 1877
Annie dies aged 9.
Who was the informant?  What name is recorded as her father?
1897
Thomas jnr (b 1870) marries.  His father's name is recorded as Thomas Robert (see reply #8 by scully).
Did Thomas jnr ever know his father?  As a baby in 1871 he was with his mother and sister (but not his father) at his SCULLION grandparents.  In 1881 and 1891 he was with his Uncle John O'HARA and Aunt Ann (FITZSIMMONS) O'HARA.
Date??
At Thomas jnr's death (informant?) and/or burial, his father is recorded as Robert, an engine driver.

Did Thomas/Robert ever, himself, give his name as Robert?  Or only as Thomas? Yes, as informant of the death of his wife Mary in 1874 he gave his name as Robert - see above under 1874

There is a possible Robert in 1851 with appropriate parents - but age does not quite fit the marriage age (perhaps he lowered it a little because Mary was only 19).

1851
Ayrshire, Newton on Ayr, Saltfield St
FITZSIMONS
Thomas 53, Coal Shipper, b Ireland
Helen 44, wife, b Ireland
Mary 17, daughter, Woolen Factory, b S Newton, Ayr
Helen 15, daughter, Woolen Factory, b S Newton, Ayr
Daniel 12, son, Woolen Factory, b S Newton, Ayr
Robert 9 (i.e. b ca 1842), son, Woolen Factory, b S Newton, Ayr
Helen D HARA (sic) 1, granddaughter, b S Newton, Ayr

The only one I've traced is Daniel - through to 1901 (under some pretty innovative spellings as transcribed).  He married a Catherine CURRIE in 1859, and was an Engine Keeper (or similar) in all censuses after 1851.

Was Mary listed as married in 1871?
Might Thomas/Robert have died or decamped after the birth of baby Thomas? No.
Who was the informant of Mary's death in 1874?  Robert was.  See above under 1874.

JAP
Note: edits/corrections are made in red above (many many thanks to trish251 for her very helpful pointers).
Note: Robert, with father Thomas & mother Helen, has now been found in the 1861 census (see later - reply #27 by ibi).  Robert's age is given as 17 i.e. born ca 1844.

[ibi]

I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to get any further with the problem of whether the husband of Mary SCULLION was Thomas FITZSIMMONS or Robert FITZSIMMONS.

For my own benefit, I'll recap the findings so far (lots of work by ibi!) and ask some questions - please don't hesitate to point out any misunderstandings.
1867
Thomas FITZSIMMONS marries Mary SCULLION.  His age recorded as 22 (i.e. b ca 1845) and occupation as engine driver.
1868
Daughter Annie born.  Registered by her SCULLION grandmother.  Father's name given as Robert
1870
Son Thomas born.  Registered by his father whose name is recorded (and signed?) as Thomas.

Copious information on 1870 birth informant given above.

1871 census
Mary, Annie and baby Thomas are with Mary's parents.
As far as I am aware Robert/Thomas has not yet been found in this census or in any subsequent census?

That's what's clearly said in this thread.

1874
Mary dies.  Husband's name given as Robert.
Who was the informant?

See above, info in a couple of places in this thread.

ca 1877
Annie dies aged 9.
Who was the informant?  What name is recorded as her father?

See above, already in this thread.

1897
Thomas jnr (b 1870) marries.  His father's name is recorded as Thomas.

Incorrect, see earlier in this thread.

Did Thomas jnr ever know his father?  As a baby in 1871 he was with his mother and sister (but not his father) at his SCULLION grandparents.  In 1881 and 1891 he was with his Uncle John O'HARA and Aunt Ann (FITZSIMMONS) O'HARA.
Date??
At Thomas jnr's death (informant?) and/or burial, his father is recorded as Robert, an engine driver.

Did Thomas/Robert ever, himself, give his name as Robert?

Yes, see above.

Or only as Thomas?

No, see above in this thread,

......snipped ........

ibi

[JAP]

I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to get any further with the problem of whether the husband of Mary SCULLION was Thomas FITZSIMMONS or Robert FITZSIMMONS.

For my own benefit, I'll recap the findings so far (lots of work by ibi!) and ask some questions - please don't hesitate to point out any misunderstandings.
1867
Thomas FITZSIMMONS marries Mary SCULLION.  His age recorded as 22 (i.e. b ca 1845) and occupation as engine driver.
1868
Daughter Annie born.  Registered by her SCULLION grandmother.  Father's name given as Robert
1870
Son Thomas born.  Registered by his father whose name is recorded (and signed?) as Thomas.

Copious information on 1870 birth informant given above.

1871 census
Mary, Annie and baby Thomas are with Mary's parents.
As far as I am aware Robert/Thomas has not yet been found in this census or in any subsequent census?

That's what's clearly said in this thread.

1874
Mary dies.  Husband's name given as Robert.
Who was the informant?

See above, info in a couple of places in this thread.

ca 1877
Annie dies aged 9.
Who was the informant?  What name is recorded as her father?

See above, already in this thread.

1897
Thomas jnr (b 1870) marries.  His father's name is recorded as Thomas.

Incorrect, see earlier in this thread.

Did Thomas jnr ever know his father?  As a baby in 1871 he was with his mother and sister (but not his father) at his SCULLION grandparents.  In 1881 and 1891 he was with his Uncle John O'HARA and Aunt Ann (FITZSIMMONS) O'HARA.
Date??
At Thomas jnr's death (informant?) and/or burial, his father is recorded as Robert, an engine driver.

Did Thomas/Robert ever, himself, give his name as Robert?

Yes, see above.

Or only as Thomas?

No, see above in this thread,

......snipped ........

ibi

Hi All,

ibi, thank you for your comments.

I have other commitments just now.   However, I will come back later (or probably tomorrow my time) and check through the thread.  I will then edit my summary appropriately with annotations - and I will source amendments to those who originally provided the information.
I won't check out original certificates - too costly for me.

I will do it this way (i.e. editing the summary) because I, for one, always find it helpful to have a summary to check back to.  And I certainly do not wish to leave a summary online if it has errors of fact, or incorrect implications.

Back later,

JAP   

[trish251]

Hi Ibi

Wouldn't it be easier for everyone reading the summary, if you added the information you have, rather than say "see above" . Above is quite a few large posts and a summary makes it easier for other folks to help. Based on your "see above" comments, I find the following which I hope will help JAP update her summary.

I have not added further where you said such things as "That's what's clearly said in this thread" - a summary will obviously gather information previously given in the thread.

1870
Son Thomas born.  Registered by his father whose name is recorded (and signed?) as Thomas
I can find nothing above that states whether father Robert/Thomas was the informant & signed as such, so it seems a good question. if he signed his name as Thomas, then he wasn't Robert (at that time) If he signed with a mark or the registrar wrote his name, different story perhaps.

1874
Mary dies.  Husband's name given as Robert.
Who was the informant?

Informant: Robert FITZSIMMONS  - information given on reply #11 from Ibi
(I assume IBI downloaded some SP images - I must start asking questions about my folks  )

ca 1877
Annie dies aged 9.
Who was the informant?  What name is recorded as her father?
I've also found the death of Thomas's sister Annie at 9 years old, the information again fitting, but still leaving this double identity Thomas/Robert wide open !  - reply #13 from Ibi - this is the only comment I can see about the death of Annie. What information fitted?

1897
Thomas jnr (b 1870) marries.  His father's name is recorded as Thomas
I think i have now found Thomas's marriage in1897 aged 26. It do's say his father was a Robert  instead of Thomas but it do's have the right mothers name. reply #8 from Scully

Did Thomas jnr ever know his father?  As a baby in 1871 he was with his mother and sister (but not his father) at his SCULLION grandparents.  In 1881 and 1891 he was with his Uncle John O'HARA and Aunt Ann (FITZSIMMONS) O'HARA.
Date??
At Thomas jnr's death (informant?) and/or burial, his father is recorded as Robert, an engine driver.

Did Thomas/Robert ever, himself, give his name as Robert?  Or only as Thomas?
I am unsure as to what the reply Yes - see above means as a response to multiple questions.

Or only as Thomas?
Thomas was apparently given (if the father was the informant) in 1870 - reply #11 by Ibi gives parents on birth record - but not informant that I can see.

I hope this helps with your update JAP.  My apologies if I missed something among the replies (not uncommon when lots of information given). The 1851 census looks interesting

Trish

[jonn]

Hello All,

If you look at the family history of the Fitzsimmons, all variations, in Ayrshire, starting with the origins of this family Thomas Fitzsimmons, and Helen Divan, you will come to the conclusion that Robert, is the actual partner of Mary Scullion, and not Thomas.

Its really quite straightforward.

Regards,
Jonn.

[JAP]

Hi All,

Just ducked in for a minute.

Many thanks to you Trish for your comments.

I'll still go through it all carefully tomorrow.

Hi Jonn, Not sure where you fit in and why you have come to that conclusion?
You may well be right.  And are almost certainly right.
But wouldn't it be great to find an explanation of the Thomas/Robert confusion.

And doubts have been expressed elsewhere on this thread.  So proof is needed.

And unfortunately, in genealogy, the obvious is not always proven to be correct.  Notwithstanding old William of Occam/Ockham (ca 1288-ca 1348) for whom I have always had, and still have, huge respect*.  But too many genealogists have followed false trails by believing in the 'obvious'.  Though I suspect that the obvious is correct in this case.

So I'll have to think about all this tomorrow BUT very carefully ...

Yes, I did manage to find the parents (Thomas and Helen) with a Robert aged 9 in 1851 (age a bit out for "our" Thomas/Robert).

But, I think, we still haven't found Thomas & Helen, or Robert/Thomas, in 1861 - come on everyone, keep searching!!

All things are possible!

Regards,

JAP
*I'm getting very unusually personal here - my apologies but it is about Occam's Razor.   My late ex-b-i-l appeared on an Australian science show (Robyn Williams) talking about Occam's Razor and is quoted on the following site as an adherent;
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-6742416_ITM
Which probably explains why I have a bit of a "thing" about Occam!

[Gadget]

Hi All

Can I pop in and add something that I've just found. Not sure if it's been found before but it's not in JAP's, Trish's or Ibi's summaries:

1871 census
30 Princes Street, Glasgow - 644/5 ED 2 Page 18

Mary Cronin, hd, wid, 21 or 27, lodging house keeper, b. Ireland
Her  family and lodgers including:
Robert Fitzsimmons, lodger, 26, b. Ireland. (ie. b.c 1845)

Robert is amongst  a group of men (possibly sharing a room),  the first of which is down as Unm and all the rest are 'doed'. In the occupation field for all of them is written 'Trade not known'

No Thomas of the right age so far on the 1871 - with lots of wildcards.

Nothing on the 1861 yet.



Gadget

[ibi]

Hi Trish

Hi Ibi

Wouldn't it be easier for everyone reading the summary, if you added the information you have, rather than say "see above" . Above is quite a few large posts and a summary makes it easier for other folks to help. Based on your "see above" comments, I find the following which I hope will help JAP update her summary.

Two summaries have already been given at earlier stages.

I find it difficult to see why I'm expected to supply yet a further summary to a long list of questions from someone who has clearly not properly read the thread.
 

Son Thomas born.  Registered by his father whose name is recorded (and signed?) as Thomas[/b]
I can find nothing above that states whether father Robert/Thomas was the informant & signed as such, so it seems a good question. if he signed his name as Thomas, then he wasn't Robert (at that time) If he signed with a mark or the registrar wrote his name, different story perhaps.

In one earlier summary, I wrote

On the 1870 birth register entry for wee Thomas I can well imagine a scenario where the registrar asks Robert "What's the father's name?" but Robert mishears that as "What's your father's name?" and replies accordingly, resulting in the father of wee Thomas being shown as Thomas FITZSIMMONS.  Thomas/Robert  makes his mark in the register.

I can only apolgize if I haven't made clear what's on the register entry.

1874
Mary dies.  Husband's name given as Robert.
Who was the informant?

Informant: Robert FITZSIMMONS  - information given on reply #11 from Ibi
(I assume IBI downloaded some SP images - I must start asking questions about my folks  )

I may or may not answer such questions!  It all depends on whether the situations involved intrigue me.

ca 1877
Annie dies aged 9.
Who was the informant?  What name is recorded as her father?
I've also found the death of Thomas's sister Annie at 9 years old, the information again fitting, but still leaving this double identity Thomas/Robert wide open !  - reply #13 from Ibi - this is the only comment I can see about the death of Annie. What information fitted?

The information on the register entry.  I'm certainly not going to transcribe every single register entry that I look at!

1897
Thomas jnr (b 1870) marries.  His father's name is recorded as Thomas
I think i have now found Thomas's marriage in1897 aged 26. It do's say his father was a Robert  instead of Thomas but it do's have the right mothers name. reply #8 from Scully

Quite!

Did Thomas jnr ever know his father?  As a baby in 1871 he was with his mother and sister (but not his father) at his SCULLION grandparents.  In 1881 and 1891 he was with his Uncle John O'HARA and Aunt Ann (FITZSIMMONS) O'HARA.
Date??
At Thomas jnr's death (informant?) and/or burial, his father is recorded as Robert, an engine driver.

Did Thomas/Robert ever, himself, give his name as Robert?  Or only as Thomas?
I am unsure as to what the reply Yes - see above means as a response to multiple questions.

Maybe it wasn't clear that I was answering the last para.

Or only as Thomas?
Thomas was apparently given (if the father was the informant) in 1870 - reply #11 by Ibi gives parents on birth record - but not informant that I can see.

In one earlier summary, I wrote

On the 1870 birth register entry for wee Thomas I can well imagine a scenario where the registrar asks Robert "What's the father's name?" but Robert mishears that as "What's your father's name?" and replies accordingly, resulting in the father of wee Thomas being shown as Thomas FITZSIMMONS.  Thomas/Robert  makes his mark in the register.[/i]



I trust that this makes everything clear.

ibi

[ibi]

.......snipped

But wouldn't it be great to find an explanation of the Thomas/Robert confusion.

I've already offered one.

And doubts have been expressed elsewhere on this thread.  So proof is needed.

I'm not aware that I've stated that there aren't any doubts.  But, given the available info, proof is very unlikely.

......snipped..............

Yes, I did manage to find the parents (Thomas and Helen) with a Robert aged 9 in 1851 (age a bit out for "our" Thomas/Robert).

But no-one seems to have picked up on the significance of the granddaughter in the household thus positively linking this family to the Robert we're looking for.

But, I think, we still haven't found Thomas & Helen, or Robert/Thomas, in 1861 - come on everyone, keep searching!!

I have but I wanted to let Scully see the info first.

But that's not to say that there's a Thomas missing from the household in both 1851 and 1861 ........

......snipped..........

ibi