1871?

[fred111]

Sorry, it's me again.
I'm still trying to sort out those Summervilles.
I have Mary & James Summervillle & some family on the 1861Census at 23 Cutt Bank, All Saints, Newcastle.
It seems Mary died in 1862, and James In 1878.
If that is the case, I can't find James Summerville born c1796 on the 1871 Census.
Can anyone sort this out, PLEASE?
Liz

[genjen]

Could this be him? It says unmarried but he could have been widowed.

RG10/5090/55/18 Newcastle

James Somerville, 74, Cordwainer, born Scotland

Jen

[trish251]

Hi Jen

That chap seems to be there in 1861  - Liz's man was a Millwright in 1861 born Northumberland - if I have the right record

Trish

Edit: Have you checked for any children Liz - married daughters? He may be living with them - I don't easily see him but could be the spelling & my searching 

[trish251]

Are you sure of the death? There is a James Summerville died Dec 1861 Newcastle T  10b 58
No age is given - I assume this was just before age was included on the index? The one in 1878 does look good for age - but could it be the Scotsman?

Apologies if you have already sorted this out

Trish

[JenB]

It seems Mary died in 1862, and James In 1878.

hello again Liz 

This is a bit vague. As trish says, are you absolutely certain that the 1878 is your James? Have you got the death certificate?  There is a good possibility that it could be the cordwainer that genjen found - their ages were very similar.

Jennifer

[Michael Dixon]

Liz,

I think Trish and Jennifer's case has a lot of merit.

 I have James's death as 22 Dec 1878- ( via Summervilles descendants in Canada) and I may have passed this info on to you.
Anyway I shall have a go at resolving the issue.

Your Morpeth-born James, wright,  lived at Cut Bank in Byker... within Parish of all Saints.

The Scotland-born shoemaker lived in Queen St which lay in the Parish of St Nicholas ( but almost on the parish border with All Saints) - on Folio 53 - not 55

So in the next few days I shall try to look up parish burial records for these two James- one in 1861, t'other in 1878 - hopefully to resolve the question.

Michael Dixon

PS For C1871 Edward Lennox, son-in-law of Morpeth James, is at 5002-11-15, transcribed by Ancestry as something like Seanor.

[fred111]

Thanks once more for all your help and interest.
Good old Rootschat detectives at it again.
I have found many Summervilles of varions spellings around Newcastle, Long Benton, Tynemouth, Ponteland etc. Some of the families have the same first names for the children, which makes me think that they may be cousins.
However, I didn't think the James S born in Scotland was the same James born in Morpeth. Geordie Census takers are unlikely to confuse the two, even though the rest of the country seems to think when you mention Newcastle "Oh that's near Scotland, isn't it?"
(I read a paper at the weekend that said that the Welsh were as pround of Offa's Dyke as the Scotts were of The Roman Wall!)
A cordwaier - shoe-maker would have been a skilled occcupation, and not one which you could just take up. There is no suggestion that he his living with or by someone who could be teaching him.
James and Mary had lived with Margaret and Edward Lennox up until the 1861 C. I didn't some how think that he would end up living on his own with so many family about.
I'm afraid I did presume the date of Morpeth James's death. I haven't as yet got a certificate.
Liz
No wonder I couldn't find Edward on the 1871C if his name was so mis-spelt!

[JenB]

However, I didn't think the James S born in Scotland was the same James born in Morpeth. Geordie Census takers are unlikely to confuse the two, even though the rest of the country seems to think when you mention Newcastle "Oh that's near Scotland, isn't it?"

Hi Liz 

There's no suggestion they are one and the same person. In the 1861 census there were two James Summervills living in Newcastle.  One was your James, aged 65, and the other was the unmarried shoemaker from Scotland, aged 64.

Your James and Mary are on the 1861 census, but not on the 1871 census. Therefore it seems likely that your James died in the December quarter of 1861, as suggested by Trish, and Mary died in 1862.

James Summerville, bachelor shoemaker from Scotland, appears in the 1871 census, and the 1878 death is most likely his.

Hopefully Michael will be able to confirm this when he looks at the parish records.

Jennifer

[genjen]

Probably best to ignore my original suggestion of the cordwainer from Scotland. I think I have just confused the issue.

( But please, please, don't class me amongst the people who don't know where Scotland starts and finishes!
 I have had much the same problem all my life with those who think that, being born in Middlesbrough, I must be a Geordie! )