Reformatory Boys on board Clarence

[Wilbs]

The 1881 census has numerous boys in their mid teens on board the vessel "Clarence" which was run by the Liverpool Catholic Reformatory Assn from 1864-1884.

Amongst them was Jno (John) Burns, born 1867 in Liverpool.

I assume that the associated was similar to Borstal where delinquent boys were punished and hopefully reformed.

How can I find out more about John, especially identify his parents and what mischief he got up to?  If I have the correct John Burns, he went on to have a career at sea.

Thank you

Wilbs

[dotty]

If you "google" Liverpool Records Office Ship Clarence that will give a list of the info they have.I think that has to be your starting point

Dotty

[Wilbs]

Hi Dotty

Yes, I goggled The Clarence and it makes fascinating reading.  From what I  gather is that the records for all the other reformatory ships exist but The Clarence ones were lost.

One site suggests contacting the Nugent Care Society but warns that they may have no details.  It would be good to find out what John did and try and establish the length of his sentence and whether he was transferred to Leicestershire and then on to The Royal William.

Does the National Archives hold records for juvenile crime? My first thoughts were that John had committed some petty act but looking at the cost of housing and reforming these boys, it seems that they took the serious offenders.  And as both The Clarence and Royal William were torched, fire bugs also made up a percentage of the inmates.

Regards

Wilbs

[dotty]

I did look on the Gale newspaper site hoping his name would have appeared but it didn't.There were quite a few cases were on it though,Rev Raffles seemed to be the judge and in the majority of cases the offence hadn't been their first when they where sentenced to time on the Clarence.Normally Mr raffles made their sentence 5years.

Dotty

[emmsthheight]

Hi

Have you tried tackling it from the other end.  ie. Starting in Liverpool with their crime records?

By the way' Clarence was aboat on the Carlisle Canal before being retired to the reformatory in Liverpool.  Actually, as you say, there were definite problems with fire, and other ships were renamed Clarence when they took over her position.

Best wishes

Emms

Modified: PS I did have a few articles on Clarence's career.  I'll look what I can see.

I also wonder whether there's anything on online Criminal recrds?

[Wilbs]

Hi Emma

As per your suggestion, I started looking at the criminal records and I think my John was much more than a naughty boy.  If I have the right person, he was charged with four crimes in 1878-1879 when he was 11-12 years old.

Crimes stopped between 1879 and 1883 (I know he was on The Clarence in 1881) and he was charged with another 4 in 1883-84 when he was 16-17 years old.

He may have continued after 1884 but there's no obvious court records. so I assume he was locked up again.

I've tried searching the 1891 census without luck, but can anyone find John William Burns, born Liverpool 1867 probably enjoying her Majesty's hospitality?

Thank you

Wilbs

[dotty]

If he carried on with the crimes he may well have got transported.

Dotty

[Duck]

If he carried on with the crimes he may well have got transported.

Dotty

Transportation had finished by that period, he might have been persuaded to join either the Navy or Army

Simon

[emmsthheight]

Hi Wilbs

Well you definitely got some results! 

I'm glad you caught up with him! I've acquired a couple of infamous ancestors - so far!  Also we have one in my friend's tree.  The other place we've struck gold was in the various groups of old newspapers.  Unfortunately one of mine also changed his name regularly, so that's been more difficult!  Even so, there are some Liverpool papers available.

I've used 19th Century Newspapers from Gale via my library (Free sign in at home, with the ticket code) or they may have it free at a local archive, Ancestry, and also Google newspaper archive - some free.  Loads Australia, if he was persuaded he might do better there and continued his antics!

Also, one of my ancestors also fled abroad to hide from the law - so he might have been lying low in some foreign parts, or onbooard ship - or ven hiding in the attic when they came!

Even so I'll have a look at 1971 too, in case I have more luck!  Have you tried Byrne by the way?

Thank you for the fascinating feddback!

Best wishes

Emms