Muthill, Perthshire.

[fifer1947]

Marriage Patrick McAra = Shusan McAra 23 AUG 1778      Monzie, Perth, Scotland
No children listed before Mary 1801 to Peter and Susan McAra *if* this is the same Peter/Patrick and Susan.

I think you may need to consider getting the microfilm and going through it yourself as there are so many mistranscrptions of the name.
Maybe this is one
John Macura
Gender:    Male
Baptism/Christening Date:    19 Jan 1787
Baptism/Christening Place:    MONZIE,PERTH,SCOTLAND

[mcmcara]

We can trace my husbands family straight back to Duncan Mcara and Isabel Alice, its after that that things get a bit complicated. I think what may have happened is that Patrick and Shusan were cousins, maybe their grandfathers were siblings, this meant that they have the same naming pattern in the male line. Shusan had a brother Duncan born 25 Dec 1761, I believe he has been confused with his nephew Duncan, son of Patrick /Peter and Shusan who maried Isobel Alice. This would make sense as the Isabel name has carried through but not Anne/ Agnes (female names change more often than males as the new wife will always introduce new female names and if there are mainly sons born a name can disappear in a generation)

Patrick and Shusans marriage is on the www.family search website

Duncan McAra m Isabel Alice 6th Dec 1807
Peter McAra m Isabelle Steele 1832 Perthshire
William McAra m Grace Watson 31st Dec 1858 Perth
Duncan McAra m Mary Toal 16th Nov Dublin Ireland
Duncan J McAra m Elizabeth Brown 1939 London my husbands grandparents


Mcmcara

[fifer1947]

I think what may have happened is that Patrick and Shusan were cousins, maybe their grandfathers were siblings, this meant that they have the same naming pattern in the male line. Shusan had a brother Duncan born 25 Dec 1761, I believe he has been confused with his nephew Duncan, son of Patrick /Peter and Shusan who maried Isobel Alice. This would make sense as the Isabel name has carried through but not Anne/ Agnes (female names change more often than males as the new wife will always introduce new female names and if there are mainly sons born a name can disappear in a generation)

If they were siblings they would have different names and so their sons would have a different naming pattern.

ie even if both named their first son Patrick/Peter after their father the second son would be named after their spouse's father then for example Duncan's 3rd son would be Duncan and Peter's third son would be Peter would they not?

Have you traced which fathers the two cousins had, back to their fathers and grandfathers?

[mcmcara]

I agree wt you about the naming pattern, its the same as the Irish one, I only mentioned grandfathers as an example. it would also depend on how many sons were born and their position in the family, you couldent call your third son after yourself if you were the eldest and named after you father! In my own family there is an instance of the groom himself and both fathers being called Patrick, that allowed for a few other family names to be included which might not have survived to another generation

 Are first cousins allowed to marry in Scotland? I know it could be done with a special dispensation in Ireland, if for example there were no male heirs on one side to carry the name, or inherit the family place.

If you were to follow the naming logic , then Andrew Mcaras father was Andrew as his eldest son (born 1752 died btween 1761 and 1764) was called Andrew and on his eldest sons death he named his fourth son Andrew(born 1764)  he may have a elder brother called Duncan as he called his third son Duncan (born 1761) In Ireland third son was usually called after his father or eldest uncle depending on names available.

mcmcara

[fifer1947]

"you couldent call your third son after yourself if you were the eldest and named after you father!"  Exactly and that is the reason the naming pattern occasionally changes, but only in the case of the sibling who bears his father's name.


Try this Andrew son of Andrew.  ANDREW MCARA -  28 DEC 1705 Fowlis Wester, Perth, Scotland

[mcmcara]

I'm straying off topic I think by tracing Andrew, everything points to our line passing through Peter/Patrick, Peter and Duncan are the strongest continuous link all down our line. Have you any idea why Peter and Patrick have been confused?

There is a Duncan Mcara married to Anne Morrison in 1874 Crieff Perth,  I wonder if he could be a brother of Peter/Patrick

mcmcara

[bleckie]

Hi mcmara

Back in the period that you are searching Patrick/Peter were interchangeable as I found to my cost.

I spent a considerable time searching for my Peter and found him and a further two generations as patrick.

The site below may give you some insight to interchangeable names.

www.whatsinaname.net

Also around the time you are looking the parish records were destroyed by fire durring the rebellion when the Beadles house was burnt along with half the village.

below taken from  http://www.scotlandsfamilytree.moonfruit.com/#/opr/4521543744

(1) Fire. If the manse or the schoolmaster’s house caught fire, then any registers therein would probably burn too. In the days of wood or coal or peat fires and of candles there was always a fire risk. In the parish of Muthill, a register for 1704 to 1760 had to be compiled from peoples’ memories or their jottings ‘the original Registers of that time having been burnt in the Session-Clerk’s house with several things of his own”.

http://www.scottish-towns.co.uk/perthshire/muthill/history.html

Yours Aye
BruceL

[fifer1947]

I agree with Bleckie I have this in my own Perthshire lines Patrick suddenly became Peter directly after the 1745!! 

Having a look at the parish map for Perth gives you a better idea of how close Monzie and Fowlis Wester actually were.

http://www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-perth.htm

The batch numbers on the IGI for Monzie give a clear indiction of the numbers of McAras [births and marriages] on the microfilm for that parish.

C113822 Monzie births 1720 - 1825  144 McAra births
M113822 Monzie marriages    1700 - 1706     
M113822 Monzie marriages    1728 - 1821

C113572  Fowlis Wester births   1674 - 1819  48 McAra births
M113572  Fowlis Wester marriages   1674 - 1819

M113424  Crieff marriages   1748 - 1819
M113466  Dull marriages    1783 - 1820

and of course there were marriages in other parishes also. 

Marriage usually took place in the brides parish and the newly wed couple set up home in the grooms parish.  Often the bride would return to her [mother] parish for the birth of the first child hence the reason children are sometimes not born in the parish they grew up in.

[mcmcara]

Maybe Patrick was considered a Gaelic type name, and dropped for that reason.

If I had the names of Patrick and Shusans children that would give me a starting place to try and go back further

On a different but related topic, I have traced all the children of William Mcara and Grace Clink Watson except one - Peter born 1862 Kincardine Perth, he is believed to have died between 1891 (his wife recorded at her parents address as being married)  and 1898 Ceres Fife (his wifes death cert in 1898 described her as a widow) but there does not seem to be any record of his death.
I have a vague memory of my husbands grandfather telling me a story about his fathers brother Peter who was killed in an industrial accident which he witnessed but where the accident took place was not mentioned. Any advice