Father named on illegitimate child's marriage certificate - COMPLETED Thanks

[LizzieW]

Years ago, I got a marriage cert (1840) for who I thought was my 2 x g.grandfather, Charles Cockett and was amazed to find that he had put Thomas Tubbs as his father.  Originally I thought I must have the wrong certificate, but later found out that it was correct (using his wife's maiden name and getting birth certificates etc. of my g.grandfather).  I know illegitimate children can just give any name as their father, but they do usually give their grandfather's name or similar, not a name so totally different to their own.

However, on the new pilot LDS site, I found the marriage of Charles Cockett and again it gives the father as Thomas Tubbs.  Now I presume that the pilot site has transcribed Parish records.  As there was a person called Thomas Tubbs living in Holbeach at the time, who would have been about about 23, that is 10 years younger than my 3 x g.grandmother, at the time of my 2 x g.grandfather's birth, do you think that he probably was the father?  This man didn't die until 12 years after my 2 x g.grandfather married.

Surely, in what I imagine was a fairly small place in 1840, no-one would name a man as their father, unless it were actually true.  Thomas Tubbs didn't marry my 3 x g.gran but married another lady, who was a couple of years younger than him, about 5 years after my 2 x g.grandfather was born. 

Lizzie

ps.  The names of the witnesses don't help, they were the bride's parents.

[Geoff-E]

Perhaps Holbeach was bigger than you thought.
1801    2,683
1831    3,890
1851    5,191
1881    5,190
1891    4,771
1911    5,259

It's quite likely that he knew who his father was.  They were not always as secretive as we may imagine.

An illeg daughter of one of my ancestors named him at her marriage and was living next door to him at the next census.

[LizzieW]

1911 figures are only a bit smaller than the place where I live.  I know virtually no-one here, most people are incomers (as I am).  However, I'm sure if I was younger and more involved in the village life, school, etc. I would know more of what was going.  I did wonder if perhaps my 3xg.gran Mary Cocket and Thomas Tubbs lived together for a while, before he upped and married someone else.  I can't find Thomas Tubbs on the 1841 or 1851 census, so have no idea whether he lived near to Charles Cockett.  My 3 x g.gran died in 1827 in the workhouse.

Lizzie

[Geoff-E]

TT was buried 11 Jan 1852 (64) at Holbeach.

1841 Holbeach Marsh
HO107/608-3/8/9

1851 Holbeach Marsh
HO107/2097/7

 ... apparently some distance from CC.

[LizzieW]

Hi Geoff

Yes I knew his burial date, I've got his death cert, he died on 6 November 1852.  The informant was a Naomi Goodwin, present at the death.  She is on the 1851 census, living in Gedney, but I suppose by 1852 she could have moved to Holbeach Marsh. 

I saw those two TTs on the 1841 and 1851 census, but didn't think it was the correct person.  I thought "my" TT had married someone called Mary Dunham on 15 December1816(batch no.M011131on IGI)  whose parents were probably Thomas Dunham and Mary.  She didn't die until about 1862 in Holbeach, whereas the one on the 41 and 51 census was apparently married to someone called Ann.  I have no idea why I thought Mary Dunham was the correct wife, apart from the fact that she was 3 years younger than TT and was born in Holbeach

I can't find a marriage of a Thomas Tubbs to an Ann, anywhere in the country.

Lizzie

Modified I've just found a death of a Mary Tubbs in Holbeach in 1820, so maybe that is the Mary Dunham who married Thomas in 1816 and then he re-married after that to someone called Ann.  And - there is a marriage in 1830 of a Thomas Tubbs and an Ann Dunham, I wonder if that was a sister of Mary?

[Geoff-E]

Modified I've just found a death of a Mary Tubbs in Holbeach in 1820, so maybe that is the Mary Dunham who married Thomas in 1816 and then he re-married after that to someone called Ann.  And - there is a marriage in 1830 of a Thomas Tubbs and an Ann Dunham, I wonder if that was a sister of Mary?

Thomas TUBBS was a widower at the 1830 marriage.

http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=1537718

It was only in 1835 that marriage to a deceased wife's sister was prohibited.

[LizzieW]

Now I've confused things further, or probably not.  I've been looking on the pilot site of IGI and it seems the Mary I found who died in 1820 was not Thomas Tubbs wife, I don't know who she was as there was no age given.  What I did find was that Thomas and Mary had the following children:

Mary (Dunham) born a few months before Thomas and Mary married in 1816.  I wonder if she took the Tubbs surname and was the one who died in 1820?
John 1818
Abigail 1819
Clement 1822-24
Eleanor (Ellen) 1828-1846 (She is on the 1841 census aged 14).
Clement 1826-1826.

Then I found a death of another Mary Tubbs in 1830 (buried Feb 1830).  The marriage to Ann Dunham took place after this on 24 October 1830.  They then had the following children:
Clement 1833 (seems Thomas was determined to have a Clement!!)
Jon 1835
Job 1835-1835 (these could be the same child or maybe twins)
Elizabeth 1836-1836
Elizabeth 1837 (She is on the 1841 census)
David 1843

Elizabeth and David are the children shown on the 1851 census (along with 5 male lodgers - it must have been a squash in their house )  On the 1841 census, it would appear that there were another 10 people at the address, as well as a John Tubbs, who may well have been Thomas' brother.  I can't believe all these people were in one building, perhaps the enumerator forgot to put the dividing lines to show different dwellings.

By the way does it show if Ann Dunham was a widow at the time of the marriage?  It looks from the 1851 census, that she was actually born in Hull, whereas Mary Dunham was born in Holbeach.  I wanted to check on the FindMyPast site to see what they had transcribed it as (Ancestry has it as Huell, Yorkshire), but I can't get on to it.  I guess that is because they are giving free access to all during the England games of the World Cup.

Lizzie

[Geoff-E]

Now I've confused things further, or probably not.  I've been looking on the pilot site of IGI and it seems the Mary I found who died in 1820 was not Thomas Tubbs wife, I don't know who she was as there was no age given. 

Aged 4 http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Burials&RecordID=2948828 - I suspect she was your Mary DUNHAM
Other TUBBS burials at Holbeach
25/3/14 Harley (inf)
11/5/17 Abigail (inf)
1820 Mary (4)
1824 Clement (3)

As well as your other Clements there was 15/1/26 aged 63.

Ann DUNHAM was a spinster at marriage - see link I gave above.

[LizzieW]

Thank you Geoff.  Sorry, I didn't notice the link you gave me regarding the marrige I did try looking on FreeReg, but didn't seem to find anything, perhaps I'm putting in too much info into the search page.

I had the death in 1824 of Clement and I agree that the 1820 death of Mary is probably the child originally called Mary Dunham.  I did see the other Clement on the pilot site, but for some reason decided he wasn't one of the babies.  I don't know who he was, but there were other Tubbs around Holbeach. 

I was interested that there was also an Arabella Tubbs, father Thomas Tubbs who was buried 15 December 1811.  If she was a daughter of "my" Thomas Tubbs, then he was a busy man, as my 2 x g.grandfather was born in 1811 too, but kept his mother's surname.  I've got a CD somewhere of Lincolnshire bastardy bonds, so I'll get it out and see if I can find any more Tubbs.  I seem to remember it is not very legible, so will probably wait until I've had my 2nd cataract done, as having had one done, my eyes are seeing different things at the moment.

I'm going to call it a day.  I'm fed up with not being able to do searches properly tonight, it seems there are more people on the internet tonight than usual, so much for everyone supposedly being interested in some ball game   I can't even get onto Familysearch now to check out Arabella and the two Harleys to see if there is more info on there. As the first Harley's father is shown as Clement, it could be that the second one was also a child of Clement. Got onto Familysearch, and both the Harley's are children of Clement and Elizabeth.  Maybe the Clement aged 63 was this Clement's father. 

I presume of this parish, in relation to Ann Dunham just means she was living there at the time, as according to Ancestry she was born in Hull (they've transcribed it as Huell and I still can't get onto FindMyPast to check what they have).

Lizzie