Joseph Dunbar

[joaniegray]

Hi - My great grandfather was Joseph Dunbar married to Maria Chapman according to my grandmother's birth certificate - her name was Dorothy, born 1898 in Hackney. I have them in the 1891 census and later ones but all attempts to find a marriage cert, birth cert for Joseph or trace of them on censuses before 1891 have drawn a blank - tried the Scottish records too. Does anyone else possibly have any info on these ??
Just a long shot
Thanks

[lizdb]

Although thebname is Scootish sounding, 1901 census indicates he came from London, as did Maria, and their early married life was spent there.

RG13 1630 38 10
130 Fulbourne Terrace Walthamstow
Joseph 55 Drapers Asst bn Clapton London
Maria 40 wife bn Clapton
Alice 9  bn Clapton
Constance 8 bn Walthamstow
Frank 4 bn Portsmouth
Dorothy 2 bn Dorset town N/K
Clifford 9mths no birthplace
Emma Cleasby 55 wid montlhy nurse
Charles Ingram boarder

[lizdb]

1891 raises questions! Maria's age is not consistant with that in 1901 - nor is it consistant with the fact that she has 5 children over the next 10 years .....!
But it is clear on the image as 51

Rg12 201 14 22
Joseph 45 Drapers Assistant bn Ealing
Maria 51 bn Borough

[jorose]

Also I can't see the birth certificate of Constance indexed on freebmd, but there are an Alice Ambridge Chapman and Constance Ambridge Chapman of the right ages indexed (b. Hackney district).

[joaniegray]

Thanks for your replies - Joseph is listed as a Draper on his daughter Dorothy (my grandmother)'s marriage cert. so l know that's him.  Also the names of her siblings - Connie, Clifford etc are all correct. I believe the date on the 1891 census - since l found his death cert in 1923 in West Ham (the only Joseph Dunbar there within 10 years) aged 77 - that would put his birth at 1846 which is consistent with two of the census results leaving the 1911 one as either a misprint, typo or a lie !! Unfortunately there is little real information on a death cert. No sign of his birth in 1846 though or around it.
l think the mystery will only be solved if l can find a family member with more information.
Really appreciate your help
J

[joaniegray]

p.s. I have Maria's birth certificate and she was born in 1861 so although the entry is clearly 51 she was in fact 31 !! wierd

[Eyesee]

What about this guy in 1881

RG11/1727/38/11
6 Forest Road, Leyton, Essex
Joseph AMBRIDGE, head mar 34, Drapers assistant, born Middlesex, Brentford
Jane AMBRIDGE, wife mar 36, born Middlesex, Feltham
Joseph C AMBRIDGE, son 13, Errand Boy, born Middlesex, City
Alice J AMBRIDGE, dau 10, Scholar, born ditto
James A AMBRIDGE, son 8, Scholar, born ditto
Elizabeth J AMBRIDGE, dau 6, born Middlesex, Kingsland
William G AMBRIDGE, son 1, born Essex, Leytonstone

Joseph was a policeman in 1871. Living at Town Meadow, Ealing in 1861, son of Joseph and Alice. In Back Lane, Ealing in 1851.

Old Brentford St George baptism
1847 Sep 19, Joseph, s/o Joseph & Alice AMBRIDGE, Old Brentford, Policeman, born 1846 Apr 13

Joseph married Jane BOXALL at same church 14 Jan 1866.

No sign of a Joseph AMBRIDGE in 1891 or 1901. No sign that I can see of Jane in 1891, but in 1901 she is in West Ham with a married daughter Harriet. Says she is married, but no sign of a husband.

Wondered if there was a connection because of the Ambridge name that Jorose found with the births of the two children Alice and Constance, plus the fact he is a Drapers assistant.

Ian C

[joaniegray]

I guess anything is possible but the names of the children are wrong - the only thing in common is the trade so am thinking this can't be him - no mention of the Ambrose name ever in the family.
Thanks J.

[Eyesee]

Firstly
Joseph DUNBAR can't be found before the 1891 census, and there appears to be no marriage recorded between Joseph and Maria CHAPMAN.

Alice and Constance's births can't be found on FreeBMD as DUNBAR, but as Jorose posted earlier there are births registered for Alice Ambridge Chapman and Constance Ambridge Chapman, which all fit age wise, and might account for the name change. This might also explain no marriage. After Constance the children would appear to be registered as DUNBAR. Alice and Constance CHAPMAN can't be found on the 1901 census, but Alice and Constance DUNBAR can.

1891 and 1901 census both have Joseph DUNBAR born 1846 in Ealing. 1901 index says Clapton, but there is a transcription error, image says Ealing. Occupation Drapers assistant.

Secondly
Joseph AMBRIDGE can't be found after 1881. He was born 1846-47 at Brentford according to 1851-1881, which I understand is the same area as Ealing. No death for a Joseph AMBRIDGE born 1846. He was a drapers assistant in 1881.

Thirdly
It might be worth getting one of the birth certificates of Alice or Constance to see who the parents are named as. If it is the same Joseph he may have left his first family after 1882, and changed his name to Dunbar by 1891. Divorce was not impossible then but expensive, and they may have decided to live together as man and wife. It did happen back then, and is not a modern thing.

Might be barking up the wrong tree, but still worth investigating, even if it is to only rule him out.

Not sure what Jorose or anybody else thinks.

Ian C