Lady Ann of Clontarf?

[MonicaL]

Hi Joe

Hope you are well 

Great to see the images now for the painting and silhouettes.

Might be worth reposting the images with the questions you are asking on this board here on RC: Photograph Restoration & Dating www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,298.0.html

Monica

[Pastmagic]

Hi Joe, lovely to see the images - agree with Monica you should move to the other board. Might be an idea to add the sizes, if you have them.
PM

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Hello all:

I am putting in time and effort now to try and make some progress.  My mom's eldest sister, the one who inherited Lady Anne's artifacts and story from her mom and grandmother, is ill and will not likely last the year.  I'd really like to tell her who Lady Anne actually was and how we are connected to her.

So I'm going to post on the US section a request to help find the parents (well, the mothers are what I need) of James F. Burke and his wife Jesse ne Sutherland, who died in Cincinnati in the late 1800's.  Hopefully someone can find a death certificate or similar document where that information is included.

Regards,

Joe O

[MonicaL]

Good to have you back on RC, Joe 

Wouldn't it be exciting if new info was to be found! If the US boards find something new, please report back here 

Monica

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Monica:

Will certainly let you know. 

Thanks!

Joe

[despair]

Despite the fact that her children appeared to have died relatively young without issue,I can't find a better candidate than Anne(sometimes Lady),2nd Countess of Charlemont,of Marino House Clontarf,born 1780.

Regards
Roger

[despair]

Here is a possible,tentative and tortuous connection between a Jane Rose and the Countess(es) of Charlemont.
It starts with Thomas Hickman of Clare(1655-1718)-see:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/9MMS-S2C

By his first marriage he had a daughter Harriet Henrietta who married a Thomas Hickman(!).Their daughter Mary married James Caulfeild and became 1st Countess of Charlemont.Their son Francis married Anne Bermingham,my putative candidate.

By his second marriage he had a daughter Jane who married George Rose of Cork.There may be a gap of a generation(or two) to be filled in.but there is a Jane Rose of Rathkeale,born 1791 to George and Jane and I think this article supports this being a branch of the same family:-

http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=2240

Could this Jane(an approx.contemporary of Anne Bermingham) have been the witness(and possibly guardian?).Could,also,the artefacts have come to the family via her(as Anne Bermingham had no living issue) and the tradition started then?

Regards
Roger

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Hello Roger:

Thank you for all the very evident focus you are devoting to this topic.

Yes, Anne Bermingham, wife of Francis Caulfield, has the right age, title, location.  Here I'll paste the bare bones of our family lore of Lady Anne:

They recall Jessie saying that Lady Anne was Scotch-Irish, and that she was from the castle pronounced “Glen Tarff”, Ireland.  Aunt Pat says that although Anne is referred to as “Lady”, such an appellation is incorrect, because only the wife of a lord is called such, and Lady Anne’s husband was not a lord, but a duke, the Duke of Glen Tarff, and he was duke of a castle:  Glen Tarff Castle..

Here is a link to an interesting biography of Anne Bermingham on Google books: 
http://books.google.com/books?id=UL8k71aaYtcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Queens+of+Beauty+and+Their+Romances&hl=en&sa=X&ei=23wDU_O7NtSA2QXtzYDQDQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ross%20hill&f=false

And as to a possible association that does not involve bloodlines:  as the Vernon's of Clontarf Castle and Anne Bermingham fail to yield descendant's that connect to James Francis Burke, it does become likely that JF Burke's connection to a Lady Anne may not be by blood.  What the heck, they probably all saw eachother every Sunday at St. John the Baptist church.

I hate to throw this at you, but there is a bit of confusion regarding the witness Jane.  On the church record it sort of looks like "Rose", and is transcribed as such on all searches.  But I believe that is incorrect, because the civil record clearly shows "Ross" (see attached image).

Here is link to a Nov. 1850 Dublin wedding record of a Jane Ross.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/8591fa0544790

I so, so wish that I could find the name of JF Burke's mother.  Why would JF and his new wife Jessie  include their father's names but not their mother's names on their wedding record?  How very rude!

I guess I'll just have to pray that someday I find a baptism record in Dublin for JF Burke.  Until I can work backwards from him, I doubt there is any chance for clarity of who Lady Anne was and whether or not there is a blood connection.

Okay, I've got to get out of ancestry land and into all the tasks that need doing in the real world.  Thanks again Roger for your incredible help.

Joe

[Joseph L. Oliver]

Roger:

Having slept on your proposal, and losing my resistance to a non-blood connection, Anne Caulfield ne. Bermingham seems the best candidate for Lady Anne.  I can't at this moment give her enough certainty to announce this to my relatives, but I really think your idea is quite brilliant. 

I want to absorb everything that you laid out regarding Jane Rose, so I'll go over that.  I'm also wondering, how many young ladies named Anne deserving to be called "Lady" lived in Clontarf near the castle back in the late 1700's?  Could this be determined in Burke's Peerage?  What was the population of Clontarf back then?  The simple math of that approach is appealing to me. 

In the meantime, any further thoughts?

Sincerely,

Joe