Watford or Rickmansworth family?

[CFP39]

Hi

I'm looking for new ideas!  My Payne family is now secure back to Joseph Payne & Maria (nee Nichols) despite occasions where there are 2 men with the same name close in age to choose between!  Now it has happened again and I'm stuck for how to decide which family is mine.

Joseph son of Jo. Pain & Martha (nee Sanders) bp.21.2.1779 - Rickmansworth &
Joseph son of Joseph Pain & Sarah (nee Taylor) bp. 10.3.1778 - Watford.

Joseph & Martha married 11.7.1768 at Rickmansworth and had 7 children bp. there between 1768-1782.

Joseph & Sarah married 12.8.1777 at Watford and had 5 children bp. there between  1778-1794, followed by another in 1796 at Rickmansworth.

The names of the children aren't any help either.

I'm wondering where to go now!

Regards to all
Lee

[[Ray]]

Hi Lee

HALS has it as ....

Jos Payne of Bushey
Sarah Taylor of Watford
Watford 12 Aug 1777

Jos Pain
Martha Sanders
Rickmansworth 11 Jul 1768

and ...

Jos Payne
Maria Nichols
St Albans St Stephen 27 Sep 1808

Ray

[CFP39]

Hi Ray 

The spelling Pain or Payne doesn't really help!    I was a 'Payne' but found some 'Pains' getting back this far.
What I'd really like to know is which couple are my 4 x greats.
Only know that Joseph & Maria are my 3 x greats because they had 2 of their grandsons with them on 1851CR (and Joseph was down as 'James')!

I started off with the Rickmansworth family but now lean towards the Watford one but have collected bps. for both, to be on the safe side!

It all gets a bit confusing so I'm trying to get it all written up. Am recording siblings on each generation, which is sometimes a help. Think it will also need a tree to help 'novices' negotiate the maze. Strange how there seems to be one 'family historian' in each generation. 

Thanks for having a look at my problem.

Regards
Lee 

[[Ray]]

Hi

Will this help?


1851 HO107 / 1714 / 22 / 428 , Rickmansworth, District 1b / Page 22
"Causeway"
Family 1
Joseph PAYNE, 27, Lab., , Rickmansworth
Nancy, 27, , Rickmansworth
Elizabeth, 6, , Rickmansworth
James , 4, , Rickmansworth
William, 2 , , Rickmansworth
Henry, 1month, , Rickmansworth


1851 HO107 / 1714 / 5 / 504 , Rickmansworth, District 1f / Page 5
"Croxly Hamlet"
Family 2
James Payne, 39, Lab, Watford
Ann, 34 , , Berkshire
Mary, 11, , Rickmansworth
Matilda, 9, , Rickmansworth
Emma, 7, , Rickmansworth
James, 5, , Rickmansworth
Thomas, 1, , Rickmansworth

Family 3
James Payne, 70, AgLab, Watford
Maria, 60 , , Berkhamstead
John, 10, Grandson, Rickmansworth
Joseph, 5, Grandson, Rickmansworth

Family 4
William Payne, 36, AgLab, Watford
Mary, 33 , , KingsLangley
Emily, 8 , , Rickmansworth
Emma, 6 , , Rickmansworth
Dinah, 2, , Rickmansworth
Maria, 7months, , Rickmansworth


1851 HO107 / 1714 / 6 / 504 , Rickmansworth, District 1f / Page 6
"Croxly Hamlet"
Family 5
Charles Payne , 36, Green Grocer, , Rickmansworth
Hannah, 34, , , Rickmansworth


All 5 families physically connected by the Canal
Family 1 at the Canal-side near "The White Bear"
Families 2,3,4 next door to each other, close to the Croxley Paper Mill at Croxley Common Moor
So close that the Warn Family next door to Family 2 are "Wharfingers" (Wharf on the Canal)
(James(39) probably works at the Mill while the other 2 work at the Farm. Joseph(27) at the same Mill?))
Familes 2,3,4,5 are very close to Cassiobury (Watford)

The other thing to bear in mind (see births), maybe.......................?
The Canal route coming south is Berkhamstead, KingsLangley, Watford, CroxleyGreen, Rickmansworth,


For interest, in Croxley, there is also
James Gurney    Head    32    abt 1819    Male    AgLab    Rickmansworth    Hertfordshire
Maria Gurney    Wife    34    abt 1817    Female        Sarratt    Hertfordshire
Ann Gurney    Daughter    8    abt 1843    Female        Rickmansworth    Hertfordshire
Clara Gurney    Daughter    6    abt 1845    Female        Rickmansworth    Hertfordshire
James Gurney    Son    1    abt 1850    Male        Rickmansworth    Hertfordshire


Ray

[CFP39]

Hi Ray

Sidetracked there for a while!

Families 1-4 are mine. - James (sic) and Maria & their sons.
1. Joseph bp. 20.70.1823
2. James bp. 8.1.1811
4. William bp. 8.5.1814

3. Joseph (James is error) 1783c is the one that I'm trying to fit.  Neither baptisms that I have are exact and hence my confusion. Why did they use so few names!!
I already had the James problem with the cousins only being 1 year apart!

Charles wasn't in the immediate clan but his father was John and possibly son of Joseph & Sarah of Watford.  Will resist the tempation to look into that just yet.

Thanks for all the info.
Lee

[CFP39]

Oh! and that James Gurney fits as my Nancy's brother.

Lee

[smudwhisk]

Have you looked at witnesses to any marriages to see if any clue is given?  Got lucky with a few in London this way when Aunts/Uncles were witnesses to children's marriages.   Extremely helpful though when they are literate too.

[CFP39]

Hi

All the witnesses I have so far have been useless!   

And the further back the less info on records.

Not given up yet.  Something may turn up eventually. 

Thanks for the thought.
Lee

[CFP39]

I've been giving this problem more consideration!   
Think I need to concentrate on place names rather than estimated dob.s, as only really have 1851 CR to go on.
James/Joseph 70 i.e. 1781c Watford - bp. Watford 10/3/1778 (alt. 21/2/1779 Rickmansworth)

Maria 60 or 68 (writing not clear but think 60) 1783-91c Berkhamstead - born. 14/7//1786 - bp.8.8.1786 Aldenham!  (Not that close!  Is this likely?)   

As I couldn't find Joseph & Maria on 1861 CR, I checked FreeBMD and found deaths - Joseph Payne Dec 1/4 1858 and Maria June 1/4 1859 both in Watford area.  So are the burial records likely to give me any help/confirmation?

Do you think I'm safe in going for the Watford family on this evidence?

Lee