John Thomas

[Gwaelodian]

Having been helped by you experts before and having come to the end of my limited abiltiy, I wonder if anyone can help me unravel this:
Family of Abraham and Elizabeth Phillips: Abraham(b 1822) was killed in Llan pit explosion 1875. John Thomas, a roller from Pentyrch moves into his house. (Ty'n y Coed/Wood Cottage). I have a hand written note from Booker allowing this transfer of tenancy.  Subsequently, Abraham and Elizabeth's daughter Sussanah marries a John Thomas. ( Sussanah, b 1848; d 1885).  Is this the same John Thomas? 

 Further, Phillip Phillips, a son of Abraham marries a Hannah Thomas in 1875 and lives at the same address.  Hannah's father is given as John Thomas. Could Hannah be related to the above John Thomas? 

I think Phillip Phillips died in  1888 and Hannah moves to live with her parents in the Garth.

I am also still trying to establish cause of death of Elizabeth. Her death is recorded as 1886, buried on 30th August at local church.

Suz helped me earlier.  I am writing  a book around the pit explosion. All help will be acknowledged. Thanks.

[osprey]

Hannah's father would appear to be George, not John

1891 Gwaelod y Garth RG12/4384 folio 74 pg 15
George Thomas head mar 65 watchman
Mary wife 63
Hannah Phillips dau widow 35
Annie Thomas grand dau 5
Gertrude Thomas grand dau 7
Thomas J Rees visitor 45 Independent Minister b. Swansea
all born Pentyrch except where noted

John & Susanna married before Abraham's death & they are on the same census page as Abraham & family in 1871

1871 Maesarail, Garth, Pentyrch RG10/5355 folio 4 pg 2
John Thomas head mar 25 coal miner
Susanna wife 22
Gwenllian dau 1
all born Pentyrch

marriage reg
Susannah Phillips june qtr 1868 Cardiff vol 11a pg 373 with John Thomas on the same page

Only way to find cause of death is to buy the death certificate. She was buried August 1866, not 86

more info on other thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,599523.msg4492780.html#msg4492780

[Gwaelodian]

  :)Wow! Thank you. How on earth did you do it!  I must now revise some text. Can we stay in touch? The book is going to take some time .....  this early structure is taking so long. Thanks so much for your help. In what name shall I make the credit? Norma

[osprey]

You'll need to be careful of using copyright material in a book. Terms & conditions of census providers usually say that info is for personal use only and can't be used for commercial purposes.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php

Births, marriages and deaths are available from FreeBmd's transcription of the GRO index

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/

 

[Gwaelodian]

Do you mean that the historical data cannot be used as a structure?  Mostly, I am using local 'written' information. The Phillip's family were remarkable, I am finding. One it its members wrote a chronical (not completely accurate against the census) of the family, y Phillipiad, noting those who made a mark.  Abraham Phillips and his family are noted, but really only with a list of the children and reference to the pit accident. The book I am doing is unlikely to be a commercial project - more of a gathering of information to mark the pit disaster. I am choosing to do it via  a story type narrative.  As a village, there is now an emerging project to restore and mark the industrial remains - the base of the fan house and the entrance to the drift mine in question. I have made four narrative paintings for the village hall, resourced from old mining prints.  However, I will research to the best on my ability just what the legality of the census information means in relation to this project.

 I am curious to find now if Phillip and Hannah had any children themselves. Non are referenced in the Philliipiad. Can you think of a way to approach this? There are surviving relatives of the family in the village.  None know of the pit disaster or the details. 

Thank you for your help and advice. I will press on ... and if legality precludes direct use of names/data I will make it a complete fiction with other names. Thank you again.

[osprey]

I doubt Philip & Hannah had children. None with them on the 1881 census and none with Hannah & her father in 1891.

Hannah remarried sept qtr 1894 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 744 - John Hicks on the same page

1901 Gwaelodygarth RG13/4971 folio 44 pg 17
Mary Thomas head widow 72
John Hicks son-in-law 37 platelayer
Hannah Hicks wife 44 b. Eglwysilan
Mary E Hicks dau 17
Herbert W Hicks son 11
all born Pentyrch except where noted. Relationships are those put by the enumerator and aren't correct as Hannah isn't wife to head of household.

Death of John's first wife
Agnes Ann Hicks 29 june qtr 1892 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 240

[Gwaelodian]

  Thanks, Osprey.  I am unlikely to go as far on as this.... it is likely the story will stop at Phillip's death and the empty cottage, as Hannah moves to live with her parents. But so interesting and very useful in terms of understanding the family.  It also shows me the livelihoods.  This is one I hadn't known.  Thank you again. Norma

[Gwaelodian]

Osprey - you have helped me a lot with  research . I thought you might like to know that next Wednesday, we are meeting with a person who may facilitate a grant to preserve the mine workings that started this project. ( centred on Abraham Phillips, Overman).  All that you have sent will be incorporated in text around this proposed local history memorial.
We are still seeking Elizabeth Phillips, who was living at Wood Cottage with her brother Phillip and his wife .Elizabeth was the daughter of Abraham Phillips and his second wife, Jemima, as you will know.In the Census of '81 she is listed as being 17.  With only free searches, we have looked for her at other ages but do not find her.  We think she may have been a pupil teacher and then,maybe, a teacher.  You are more expert than we are with this type of  research. Do you have any ideas on how we search Elizabeth? Thanks.

[osprey]

this could be Elizabeth in 1901, but you would need to get her marriage cert to be sure

44 Wyndham St, Barry RG13/4993 folio 15 pg 22
John Taylor head mar 46 labourer b. Glam, Gower
Elizabeth wife 37 b. Pentyrch
Bertha dau 19 dressmaker b. Cardiff
George son 5 b. Barry
Elvet Rees nephew 4 b. Peterston super Ely

marriage ref
John Taylor sept qtr 1894 Cardiff vol 11a pg 666 with Elizabeth Phillips on the same page
cert would show if this Elizabeth was the daughter of Abraham

This could be her in 1891
13 Holton Rd, Barry RG12/4406 folio 84 pg 7
Henry L Jones head widower 35 Registrar births deaths marriages b. Bonvilston
Rachel B dau 10 b. Cardiff
Mary dau 8 b. Cardiff
Thomas son 4 b. St Nicholas
Elizabeth Phillips housekeeper 29 b. Pentyrch