Author Topic: marriage on Jersey  (Read 12591 times)

Offline Smary

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marriage on Jersey
« on: Monday 30 July 12 17:11 BST (UK) »
I am looking for a marriage of Marie Therese Hayward and Donald Edward Grant on Jersey.  The details I have are a bit vague.  Donald was in WW2 so I am assuming he married around that time.  Not sure of his birth date.
Marie was born about 1913.  Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: marriage on Jersey
« Reply #1 on: Monday 06 August 12 03:49 BST (UK) »
Marie Thérèse is a bit of an odd combo with Hayward. Could Hayward have been a first married name?

In 1911, there are a few Haywards in Jersey (one family with two children) and Guernsey (two families, and a single woman who is a nurse), but they are very English, although a few born locally and one wife born in Republic La Plata, wherever that is!

The earliest Donald E Grants born in England were in 1916 (2), 1917 and 1918. Perhaps he was Scottish? Or even something like Canadian. Of course, there are a few Grants on both islands, as well.

Are you looking just for the marriage itself, or for information the certificate might give you? I'm just wondering whether there might be another way to find it.


I am editing out some info about a Grant who was killed in action as with the additional information provided below (which would have saved considerable time) it is not relevant.
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline Smary

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Re: marriage on Jersey
« Reply #2 on: Monday 06 August 12 10:21 BST (UK) »
Thank you for your reply.  The Donald Edward Grant was a Brigadier in the army - he was born on Jersey or so my friend believes and that his father was a George E Grant, born 1871 St Helier. 
Now Therese Marie Hayward was born in a foreign place we haven't found yet about 1915 ish.  Now her father Alfred Francis Hayward was a career soldier who retired to Jersey with his wife Ethel Blanche Grant!!!  See the link - Ethel Blanche was George Edward's sister so it caused quite a stir - Donald and Marie Therese never had children because of the family connection.  My friend who I am researching for remembers Uncle Donald/cousin Donald - he was both of course. 
My friend is in his eighties so I am trying to tie up some of the mysterious loose threads. 
We know that Donald E Grant died in Jersey about 2000.

Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: marriage on Jersey
« Reply #3 on: Monday 06 August 12 18:46 BST (UK) »
In the 1901 census, George E Grant and wife Elizabeth, both born c1871, him in St Helier and her in St Martins, have one child: Clarence, born c1898 in St Helier.

In 1911 George is a carriage smith. George's widowed mother Mary, born c1840 in St Brelade, is with them in 1911, but Clarence is still the only child (and the couple are 40 years old).

For Donald to have been a brigadier in WWII, I think he would have been born by 1911 (born in 1911 would make someone 30 in 1941). Perhaps he was a brigadier only later, of course -- if he died in 2000, he was not likely born before 1911, or much before.

But I think it is very unlikely that this George E Grant is the father of her Donald Edward Grant, unless George and his wife had another child after 1911.


In 1891, Ethel Grant, born c1880 in St Helier, is in St Helier with brother George (as above) and mother Mary. In 1901, she is Ethel Hayward, married, living with mother Mary and brother Henry and sister Theresa. I don't see her in any census in 1911.

"Marie Thérèse" could be a combination of Ethel's mother's and sister's names, in French.


In 1881, the family in St Helier is

Mary J 41, wife, dressmaker
Matilda J, 12
George E, 10
Theresa A, 8
Maud M, 5
Henry LF, 3 (later called Harry)
Ethel B, 9 months

In 1871, Mary is there with children Charles, Matilda and George. She is a wife, dressmaker, but still no husband is present, unfortunately. (That is consistent with him being in the military perhaps.) There is no male Grant of the right age in Jersey to be her husband in 1871.


So yes, Ethel Blanche Grant Hayward 1880 and George E Grant c1871 were sister and brother.

But it seems unlikely that the Donald Edward Grant whom Marie Thérèse Hayward married was a child of Ethel Grant Hayward's brother George -- again, unless George had another child shortly after 1911, when his wife was 40.


Regarding Marie Thérèse Hayward, I checked this site http://www.geopatronyme.com/
which gives general information about birth surnames in France. Between 1891 and 1915 (as specific as it gets), there were 4 Hayward births there, and it breaks them down by département:
3 in Manche
1 in Paris

It is possible that between 1901 and 1915, Ethel Grant Hayward had one or more children in France. This could possibly account for the French given names of the child, which seem to be for Ethel's mother and sister, even though both parents had clearly English surnames, given the strict French naming rules.

You said first she was born c1913 and now you say c1915 -- but that was the middle of WWI and it might be unlikely that her mother would have been in Europe at that time. The earlier date seems more likely.

The only Alfred Francis Hayward born in England/Wales was born in 1877 in Cheltenham. so this would have to be Ethel's husband. His father was a bootmaker. I can't find him in the 1901 or 1911 census. I don't see him in army service records at findmypast, but if he had remained in the military until after the early 1920s, his records would not yet be released.


I searched in http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/
for the name Donald Edward Grant. If he was a brigadier in the UK, his name would absolutely appear there somewhere.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/35034/supplements/125
- promotion of Donald Edward Grant 159822 to 2nd lieutenant on 7 Dec 1940
(He was OCTU - Officer Cadet Training Unit (RAPC - Royal Army Pay Corps).)

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/35858/supplements/280
- 1396962 Donald Edward Grant (133564) 12 Dec 1942
(I am not sure what this is a list of, but the heading seems to be "Ldg Acm", so I suspect this at least is the fellow who died in 1943.)

I didn't find anything for other versions of the name, e.g.
Grant, Donald Edward
Donald E Grant
Grant Donald E
There is a 2011 notice regarding an estate of a deceased Donald Edward Grant in Buckinghamshire, which I doubt would be him.


There might still be the possibility that Donald was the child of another brother of Ethel's. But I don't see him in any 1911 census, if so.


There is one interesting Donald Grant in 1911. His family is visiting a Dr MacGregor-Reid, born in India, in London. They are identified as visitors from South America. The father, Donald, is a Captain Mariner, born in the US. The wife was born in Brighton. Donald, aged 6, and his first sibling were born in the US, and the two younger children were born in Chile. They have a governess.

But then, there were Donald Grants all over Scotland too, and the rest of the world. ;)



Hold on. Found Ethel in 1911. Overseas Military, India.

Ethel Blanche Hayward, born c1881, Jersey
3 children in her household:
Percival George Hayward, 7, born Ireland
Alfred John Hayward, 4, born Middleburg, Transvaal
Yvonne Ellen Hayward, 2, born Hong Kong, China

Husband Alfred must be there somewhere, but I'm not finding him.

HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?


Offline Smary

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Re: marriage on Jersey
« Reply #4 on: Monday 06 August 12 19:00 BST (UK) »
Hi, again thank you so much for all your efforts.  The problem with Marie Therese date of birth is that on the Ancestry WW1 pension records for her father Alfred Francis Hayward(1886)it is so dark it could be either date.  It looks like she was born either Singapore or India - again because the writing of her place of birth is really blurred.  Her siblings were Percy George Hayward 1903 born Mullingar, Yvonne Ellen born 1908 Hong Kong and Alfred John born 1906 South Africa.

I shall be seeing my friend on Wednesday and try and see if he can remember anything else.  I know that Donald Grant died in the last few years.  Also know that he married again but not sure of her name.

Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: marriage on Jersey
« Reply #5 on: Monday 06 August 12 19:02 BST (UK) »
Check my edit above ... I've found something else you already knew, the 1911 census in India ...
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: marriage on Jersey
« Reply #6 on: Monday 06 August 12 19:57 BST (UK) »
So much that you knew, but you didn't offer any of it.

I've just waded through page after page of duplication in his pension records but not found the reference to his children. Could you just give the page number at Ancestry (there are two sets of records, starting at 17586 and 17592)? Possibly someone else could decipher the date and place of her birth.

Wait, I finally found it. Page 17589, at the very bottom.

I would say 1913, but yes, it's very hard to say. There is a place for both birth and baptism. It is easier to see without using "enhanced images".

In the baptism column, it looks like RomeKhat, or the first part could be Pouna and the last part khar.
In the birth column, the first part could be Rana ... I'm thinking it's a place in India, however way one reads it.

Googling random spellings (I started with Pounakhar), google offers Punakha, Bhutan. A treaty was signed at Punakha Dzong in 1910 between the Kingdom of Bhutan and British India. Pounakha is a variant (French) spelling.

There could have been British military in Punakha post -1911; I can't tell.


I wonder whether they had another child. A daughter was born to A E Hayward and his wife in Calcutta on 14 July 1911. The "E" could e a misreading. This is shown at the FIBIS site.
http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_person_search.php

Anyway, one question is whether Alfred's service record shows where he was 1913-1915. I didn't manage to catch that on the first time through and I don't think I want to try again ...
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Online la grande-méthe

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Re: marriage on Jersey
« Reply #7 on: Monday 06 August 12 20:51 BST (UK) »
The parents of George Edward Grant (and also Matilda Jane and Theresa Annie) were Charles Windsor Grant and Mary Jane Le Cornu.

I'll have a bit of a mooch tomorrow and see if I can find a marriage for George and Elizabeth and Donald and Marie.

Remember also that all Jersey records were in French until quite recently so she could have been baptized Mary Teresa but would be entered in the records as Marie Therese, census records are more erratic, sometimes English spelling, sometimes French.

Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: marriage on Jersey
« Reply #8 on: Monday 06 August 12 21:20 BST (UK) »
Ethel Grant and Alfred Hayward married in Ireland.

It's at familysearch:

Oct-Dec 1899
Athlone reg dist (place of marriage is given in pension records)
film number 101259

The details are identical for the marriage registration records for Ethel Grant and Alfred Hayward.


Percival George Hayward's birth:

Mullingar reg dist
Oct-Dec 1904
film number 101069


HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?