Author Topic: The name "Thirlow" or Thurlow Fraser  (Read 29279 times)

Offline daisypetals01

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The name "Thirlow" or Thurlow Fraser
« on: Sunday 25 August 13 06:37 BST (UK) »
Am completely stumped! Need help, please.
Have traced back to Charles Fraser, only son of Thirlow Fraser and Elspet Skene, who was born in either Tarves or St. Nicholas Parish in 1881.
A Thirlow Fraser was found listed in the Mormon Church website as being born in 1858 or 1859 and only his mother was listed. Her name was Margaret Fraser. No father is listed. No other information.
Anyone know of:
1. Margaret Fraser possibly from Tarves or nearby?
2. Is Thirlow a misspell of Thurlow?
3. Where does Thurlow come from?
4. Any info that can give me a thread to follow in this branch of the family.
Thankyou very much!!

Offline Gadget

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Re: The name "Thirlow" or Thurlow Fraser
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 25 August 13 11:49 BST (UK) »
Hi and Welcome to Rootschat

I see that Charles Fraser was born 1st Nov 1881 at 46 Loch Street, Aberdeen to Thirlow Fraser, farm servant and Elsie Skene*, domestic servant (domiciled at Aucha/edly, Tarves). As they weren't married, both signed the birth cert. Thirlow  gives his address as Hawkhillock, Old Deer.

On the 1881, the most likely Thirlow  is a Thirlow Fraser, 23 (so b. circa 1858) , farm servant, b. New Deer, living at South Auchedly, Tarves.

In 1871, it looks as if he is working at Lower Oldwhat?, New Deer:
Thirlow Fraser, 12, farm servant, b. New Deer

In 1861, he is with his parents at Mains of Barrack, Savoch

William Fraser, 43, cattleman, b. Fraserburgh
Isobella, w, 38
Peter, s, 10
Isobella, d, 8
James, s, 6
barbara, d, 4
Thurlow, s, 2

All but William b. New Deer

His birth is recorded as 22 July 1858, New Deer with parents William Fraser and Isobele m.s. Mitchell:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYY8-4L3

The son of Margaret Fraser was born Tyrie which is a way from New Deer.

This is just my take on it and it would be worth doing more checks.

* I think Elsie/Elspet is at home in Tarves with her parents on the 1881 census



Gadget
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Offline Forfarian

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Re: The name "Thirlow" or Thurlow Fraser
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 25 August 13 12:00 BST (UK) »
A couple of general points. First, the Mormon web site is an absolutely wonderful finding aid. However it is not infallible, and it does contain some trees and some 'community contributed' information that is unreliable. The 'community indexed' information is generally more reliable. However it is an index, not a primary source, so you need to check the original source for each bit of information to make sure.

Second, the concept of 'correct spelling' didn't really arise until the late 19th/early 20th century. The spelling was how the person writing down the name thought it should be spelled. So it is meaningless to ask if 'Thirlow' is a misspelling of 'Thurlow' or vice versa.

The International Genealogical Index lists the birth of Thirlow Fraser, mother Margaret Fraser, in the parish of Tyrie on 20 May 1859.

Interestingly, it lists three more. The son of George Fraser and Jean Ranken, born in the parish of Gamrie on 30 June 1841; son of William Fraser and Isobel Mitchell, born on 22 July 1858 in the parish of New Deer, and the son of Thurlow Fraser and Jane Cowie, born on 23 December 1863.

The census transcriptions at FreeCEN http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl list Thirlow Fraser, aged 15, as a male servant in the household of George Fraser, innkeeper, and his wife Jean and five children in the parish of Gamrie in Banffshire. So just three weeks after the census, Jean gave birth to a son who was named Thurlow.

In 1851 George Fraser, aged 37, innkeeper, born Fraserburgh, is listed in New Pitsligo, parish of Tyrie, with wife Jane and eight children including Thirlow, 9, born Mcduff (the town of Macduff is in the parish of Gamrie).

The 1851 lists a 25-year-old Thurlew Fraser, born Fraserburgh, working as a farm servant in the parish of New Deer.

According to the IGI William Fraser and Isobel Mitchell had seven of a family, all born in New Deer, and the 1851 census transcription at http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl lists at Land of Old What, parish of New Deer, William Fraser, aged 32, farm servant, born Fraserburgh, with wife Isobel and four children (of whom the eldest is not listed in the IGI).

Thurlow Fraser and Jane Cowie were married on 22 September 1860 in New Pitsligo.

So we have, so far, Th*rl*w Frasers linked to:
George Fraser, born 1813/14 in Fraserburgh
William Fraser, born 1818/9 in Fraserburgh
Thurlow Fraser, born 1825/6 in Fraserburgh

So far, everything points to Fraserburgh. The 1851 census lists seven Margaret Frasers born in Fraserburgh. Two can be discounted as too old to have a child in 1859. Three of them, aged 9, 10 and 12, are in the parish of Fraserburgh, and two, aged 19 and 28, are in the parish of Tyrie.

I speculate that the 19-year-old is the most likely candidate to be the mother of your Thurlow. However she is a domestic servant in 1851 and I have yet to find her in 1841.

Unfortunately the 1861 and 1871 censuses for Aberdeenshire are not yet available at FreeCEN, because the obvious thing to do is to look for your Thurlow and see if he is living with either his mother or possibly his grandparents. It is available on Scotland's People, which is a pay-per-view site. I have, however, looked at the index at SP, and I note with interest that there is a Thurlow Dunlop, aged 11, in Pitsligo in 1871. Could this be your Thurlow using his father's surname?

So, where do you go from here?

First, you should go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and invest in a few credits at modest cost. Use these to view and download image of the original birth certificate of Charles Fraser. I note that there is no listing of a marriage of Th*rl* to a Miss Skene, so it may be that Charles, like his father, was illegitimate and registered under his mother's surname.

You should also view Th*rl*w's own birth certificate. This will tell you where his mother lived at the time of his birth, and if you are very lucky the birth might have been registered by a grandparent, uncle or aunt.

If you think there is merit in my ramblings above, you could also view the originals of the various censues, birth/baptisms and marriages referred to above.

One source you should also investigate is whether the Tyrie Kirk Session had anything to say about the birth of an illegitimate child to Margaret Fraser. If so, they would almost certainly have obliged her to name the father. Unfortunately the KS minutes are not available online, so you would need to hire a professional searcher, or find a kind volunteer who is going to the National Archives Records of Scotland or one of the other archives that has these available, to take a look on your behalf.

Happy hunting!

Edit: My reply crossed with Gadget's above. However I will leave mine to stand, as I have come to a slightly different conclusion from hers. Given that there is a birth certificate of a Th*rl*w Fraser to Margaret Fraser in 1859, which matches the original information you provided, I think you would need more evidence to deduce that the son of William F and Isobel Mitchell is your one.

Tyrie and New Deer are neighbouring parishes. See
Oldwhat http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8651
New Pitsligo http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8855
which are less than 5 kilometres from one another.



Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Gadget

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Re: The name "Thirlow" or Thurlow Fraser
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 25 August 13 12:08 BST (UK) »
Hi Forfarian  :)

I'd be interested  in your view of my theory of Thirlow/Thurlow - I did look at Charles's birth cert so had more info to go on.


Gadget

(he was in the right place at the right time! )
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Offline Forfarian

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Re: The name "Thirlow" or Thurlow Fraser
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 25 August 13 12:19 BST (UK) »
I'd be interested  in your view of my theory of Thirlow/Thurlow - I did look at Charles's birth cert so had more info to go on. (he was in the right place at the right time! )

He was indeed, and it is perfectly possible, but one still has to eliminate the illegitimate son of Margaret Fraser, who matches daisypetals' original information and may be in the census as Dunlop. I don't have enough spare credits to cover all the possibilities. If I had, I would look at the marriage of Thurlow Dunlop in (New) Aberdour in 1885 and see who his mother was.

South Auchedly http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8932 is over 20 kilometres from New Pitsligo.



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Offline Forfarian

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Re: The name "Thirlow" or Thurlow Fraser
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 25 August 13 12:48 BST (UK) »
Incidentally I see that Thurlow Dunlop, aged 41, born Scotland, is in the 1901 census of Lisgar, Manitoba, Canada with wife Annie, two children born in Scotland and five born in Canada.  A Thurlow Dunlop, aged 75, died in Manitoba on 4 May 1936, date of birth stated as 26 May 1860. There is no matching birth in the SP index, or in the IGI.  The only Thurlow Dunlop born in Scotland was born in 1886 in Aberdeenshire, and the eldest son of this family in Canada is Thurlow, aged 15. Thurlow Dunlop, son of Thurlow Dunlop and Annie Ross, born January 1886 in Aberdeen, died in Vancouver on 29 July 1977.

So if the Thurlow Dunlop married in 1885 to Annie Ross is the son of Margaret Fraser, I think this would nail him.

However it wouldn't prove that he was the father of Elsie Skene's son Charles, and I agree that the coincidence of addresses makes it look likely that it was the son of William Fraser and Isobel Mitchell who fathered Charles. In which case, daisypetals' original information must have been incorrect, and we need to know why (s)he thinks that his/her Thurlow Fraser was Margaret Fraser's illegitimate son.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Gadget

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Re: The name "Thirlow" or Thurlow Fraser
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 25 August 13 14:35 BST (UK) »

So if the Thurlow Dunlop married in 1885 to Annie Ross is the son of Margaret Fraser, I think this would nail him.



OK - took the hint  ;D

The marriage  - July 17 1885, Aberdour

Thurlow Dunlop. Blacksmith, living Pitsligo

Parents - John Dunlop (clerk) and Margaret Fraser afterwards Imlak

So, if Thurlow Fraser/Dunlop was a blacksmith in 1885, I don't think he was likely to be a farm servant in 1881 and,I think, that Charles Fraser's father was the Thirlow,  son of William  - or someone that we've not yet found!


Gadget


PS - I see that Therlow Dunlop was a blacksmith on the 1881 in New Maud, New Deer
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Offline Gadget

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Re: The name "Thirlow" or Thurlow Fraser
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 25 August 13 15:32 BST (UK) »
In for a penny, in for a few credits  :-X

I find Thirlow Fraser, 42, b. Scotland with wife Mary, 36,  b. Scotland and 4 children  in Elswick, Wesgate, Newcastle upon Tyne in 1901 - RG13/4774/57/. A daughter, Elsibella/Isabella is listed. In 1891 - Westgate, N upon T -  RG12/4200/136/26


Tracing back, there is a marriage between a Thirlow Fraser, farm servant, aged 25, living Old Deer  and Mary Park, aged 19,   on 22 Nov 1884, Belhelvie. His parents are given as William Fraser, Ag Lab and Isabella, m.s. Mitchell.


Gadget
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Offline Gadget

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Re: The name "Thirlow" or Thurlow Fraser
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 25 August 13 15:52 BST (UK) »
Allowing for some awful transcription (b. New Queen, Aberdeenshire) , I think this is him in Newcastle in the later census:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWM4-5RM


Gadget
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