Author Topic: Getting confused over Liverpool Road/Street, Auckland - Can you help?  (Read 17461 times)

Offline Fresh Fields

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,847
  • If only they could talk !
    • View Profile
Re: Getting confused over Liverpool Road/Street, Auckland - Can you help?
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 09 January 16 19:43 GMT (UK) »
Hello again.

Here with, if it works, is a link to a funeral notice upon the death of Eva Emma ENGLAND, February 28th 1944. Gives some family details.

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19440228.2.8&srpos=15&e=-------100--1----2Liverpool++Street+Glen+Eden--

A PapersPast search for Liverpool Street, Glen Eden, gains some 20 hits most being adverts in regard to land sales, and none appear to give a Street/Road number. The street was relatively short.

- Alan.
Early Settlers & Heritage. Family History.

Offline Girl Guide

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,464
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Getting confused over Liverpool Road/Street, Auckland - Can you help?
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 09 January 16 21:18 GMT (UK) »
Hello Alan

Now that says Street doesn't it.  So when did Road become Street I wonder?

Do you know if it is possible to find any street maps of Auckland as it would have been in the late 1920's & early to late 1930's?

I can't think that Walter would give his address as Liverpool Road if it didn't exist.  He wouldn't get any post would he!
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

Offline Janette

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,259
  • Good night Kiwi
    • View Profile
Re: Getting confused over Liverpool Road/Street, Auckland - Can you help?
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 09 January 16 21:53 GMT (UK) »
This might be one of those things you may never find the answer to,you could try emailing the council archives to ask them

http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/AboutCouncil/HowCouncilWorks/councilarchives/Pages/visitingarchivesoffice.aspx

You will need to email the West office as they should hold all the records from the old Waitakere City Council
West

Address:
GPT Building
4 Waipareira Avenue (behind the Western Leader building)
Henderson

Cheers Janette

Offline Girl Guide

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,464
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Getting confused over Liverpool Road/Street, Auckland - Can you help?
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 09 January 16 22:19 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for that Janette, I'll see if I can get anywhere with the council.
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire


Offline Fresh Fields

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,847
  • If only they could talk !
    • View Profile
Re: Getting confused over Liverpool Road/Street, Auckland - Can you help?
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 10 January 16 01:27 GMT (UK) »

Hello Alan

Now that says Street doesn't it.  So when did Road become Street I wonder?

Do you know if it is possible to find any street maps of Auckland as it would have been in the late 1920's & early to late 1930's?

I can't think that Walter would give his address as Liverpool Road if it didn't exist.  He wouldn't get any post would he!

Hello again.

Over the last 12 months I've been a regular visitor to this part of greater Auckland assisting a distant relative who is experiencing heart problems. Mow his lawns etc, and while there I spent some four days researching in the Henderson Library of that area of West Auckland right out to the Manakau Harbour heads, and visiting historic sites of pioneering interest. I had not researched it before, but had an interest in the area as one branch of our family were trail blazers out that way from the 1860's.

Therefore last night I went looking for material on your late depression era, info and maps of Glen Eden formerly known as Waikomiti but without much luck. The ones I have collected of interest to me predated that time. The maps will be there, it's just a case of looking in the right places and digging them out.

Unfortunately the [heritage] photos of that area that I found on line were also not of your time zone. Over the next few days I will look again to see what I can dig out. I have one survey map of the greater Titirangi area c1900 which I could forward to you and another of the 1940's..

You will note in previous posts that in it's earliest days it was called Liverpool Road, and was very near to the few shops and Railway Station, that was very important to the development of West Auckland. The Road was relatively short, and when post war the area took off for residential housing the subdivision of title holdings intensified.

Again I would suggest that we go back to the period.

Road / Street was really immaterial as was numbering of properties.

In earliest times letter and parcel post was held C/- addressee,  at the nearest postal office, and when sufficient local pressure was applied, some form of postal delivery service was contracted out to contractors. In the 1880's it was quite often held by a local parent, who got their children to deliver to the householder, or a local carrier or coach service, that combined it with their other business interests.

Here in the Waikato where my family have been for over 100 years, the families post was first collected from the Post Office at the nearest Railway Station, or delivered by a contractor, every few days, before the RURAL DELIVERY service got underway six days per week.

Those NZ Postal contractors, up until say the 1970's would deliver milk, bread, paper, groceries, spare farm machinery parts, chemists prescriptions, and within reason, any thing else the contractor was prepared to collect and deliver.

Our local ones had 250 - 300 postal clients each, and knew were every one was located, even though agricultural farm employees were constantly changing farms as they gained experience and job opportunities.

YET it was not until the 1990's that a RAPID numbering system was introduced based upon the number of kilometres along the roads you were on. The need here being the creation of centralized emergency call centres, large distances away from "local knowledge".

My Grand Parents three miles out from the CBD, on a street on the fringe of what is now a large city, were not assigned a street postal number until the 1950's yet there must have been about 20 houses on it.

All the best.

- Alan.
Early Settlers & Heritage. Family History.

Offline Fresh Fields

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,847
  • If only they could talk !
    • View Profile
Re: Getting confused over Liverpool Road/Street, Auckland - Can you help?
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 10 January 16 02:45 GMT (UK) »
A 1940's Glen Eden area map, on line at the Auckland City Library,

http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?AC=PREV_RECORD&XC=/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll&BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aucklandcity.govt.nz%2Fdbtw-wpd%2Fheritageimages%2Fadvanced.htm%3Fmapsonly%3Dyes&TN=heritageimages&SN=AUTO30582&SE=197&RN=1&MR=20&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=1&XP=&RF=HIOReport&EF=&DF=HIORecord&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=2&ID=&MF=WPEngMsg.ini&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=0&NR=0&NB=0&SV=0&SS=1&BG=&FG=&QS=advanced.htm&OEX=ISO-8859-1&OEH=ISO-8859-1

If the link does not work, it is titled  NZ Maps online 2258 Auckland City Library Heritage Collection Maps.

I find the Auckland Library site hard to navigate, as it is so large, but with perseverance you should get to it eventually, as I have done.

I have another of the area in 1906. A TITIRANGI area Lands and Survey one, which I think is also on line, but the cleanest copy of it that I have, is a photo I have taken from a wall display at the River Mill Cottage Museum, Henderson. A copy of which I can supply privately.

- Alan.
Early Settlers & Heritage. Family History.

Offline Girl Guide

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,464
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Getting confused over Liverpool Road/Street, Auckland - Can you help?
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 10 January 16 07:02 GMT (UK) »
Hi Alan

My goodness you have been industrious looking things up.  The 1940's map is interesting but of course not detailed enough to pick out Liverpool Road/Street as it only names the major roads.

I can see the cemetery on there and the Oratia area which is where Walter Frederick England married his wife Lucy Shaw.

I shall be delighted to receive a copy of the 1906 map, thank you.
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

Offline Fresh Fields

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,847
  • If only they could talk !
    • View Profile
Re: Getting confused over Liverpool Road/Street, Auckland - Can you help?
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 10 January 16 09:19 GMT (UK) »
Hello yet again.

I’ve now made time, to consult the few survey plans and maps that I have.

A quick Google of Tahi Terrace, Glen Eden, gives you a roading map of the immediate area. On closer inspection I see I was possibly in error, as the Fruitvale Stn., shown on that map, I believe would have been a more modern commuter stop provided on the railway line. 

There are faint lines on these maps, and at some magnifications, they can clearly be defined as the present day cadastral, land title boundaries. The information re ownership and registered encumbrances of these titles, is in the public domain, and can be researched back through preceding tiles and subdivisions, to the original NZ land surveys, and the public Crown Lands. In this case the larger initial land titles, having been supplied to the market, as either freehold or leasehold properties. [c. 1850 – 1860’s] The Earth View option allows you to see the house / building placement of these times.

You don’t say if you hold information that may indicate if the ENGLAND’S were renters or possibly title holders. Either way in the 1930’s they possibly had access to a farmlet [small farm] or commercial sized market garden.

With the 1880’s arrival of a rail link to Auckland City, the area became the market garden of Auckland.

The railway getting to New Lynn Station [on the flat land, and on the ancient PORTAGE route between the two great Auckland Harbours] on to Glen Eden Station [formerly known by it’s Parish name of Waikomiti ] with it’s vales and rises, was the making of this area, and the stations are only a little over a mile apart.

Liverpool Road/Street and then Tahi Terrace, is half way between the two Railway Stations. On a 1906 Land Survey plan, it can clearly be seen that in the immediate area [allotments 165, 159, 158 Waikumiti Parish] there were a number of 10 to 15 acre farmlets nestled together around a gully, with neighbouring farms, on the more arable land, ranging from some 20 to 50 acres.

This plan does not show provision for the roading, that was to become named, as per above.
By the time of the March 1944 TITIRANGI Survey plan [Map 2258] in the Library Heritage collection, it can be seen those three or four farms, had been subdivided into domestic sections, with half of the present Tahi Terrace shown on the shoulder of the rise, lying parallel to the railway, but not extended down to Fruitvale Road, following the fall of a small watershed. The resolution on my copy is to low, but it appears as though there are about 10 buildings on titles that are one acre or less in size. Tahi Terrace presumably being extended in later subdivisions.

And as can be seen from the present day Google map, today’s subdivided land titles bare little resemblance, to the original farmlets, and egress of over 100 years ago.

Unlike the UK. This land has only been worked up from it’s native state since, the 1860’s or thereabouts.

Alan.

PS. Apologies to those who find this, look through history, boring.

PPS. AND NOW upon logging on to add this material to your thread,  the surname SHAW JUMPS off the page at me.

If you ever get to Auckland NZ, you have a wealth of documented local history about those pioneering families including the SHAWS. They were/are mentioned, sometimes in detail, in the local history books, and papers, that I've been studying these past 12 months.

There is a SHAW road at Waikomiti / Waikumiti / Waikumete, now known as Oratia. Those old pioneering families were large, and interlinked by marriage, so it's quite possible we have some tenuous link somewhere.

All in a Sunday afternoons research from my computer and files of research.

- Alan,

Re photo:- On lot 85 appears 21.1.0 and that is the area of the lot expressed as Acres. Perches. Rods. It is only since 1967 that all title areas are marked in Hectares.
Early Settlers & Heritage. Family History.

Offline Girl Guide

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,464
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Getting confused over Liverpool Road/Street, Auckland - Can you help?
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 10 January 16 10:15 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for that map Alan.  Interesting to see how different it was then to what is there now.  I see that you marked Tahi Terrace for me.  Do I assume that Liverpool Road got renamed Street and is now Tahi Terrace?

On the modern day map Tahi Terrace appears to be a road that looks like two sides of a square (roughly!).
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire