Author Topic: Thomas Thomas  (Read 781 times)

Offline gnorman

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Thomas Thomas
« on: Sunday 14 October 18 14:28 BST (UK) »
Hi, I have some info for a relative, Thomas Thomas born 1851 in Manchester. I've been helped to find prison records for 1874-1878 which lists him as being married with one child. I know he has a further child Emily Thomas in 1880 and that by 1901 his wife is getting remarried and is listed as being widowed. If I am correct Thomas' father is called Owen and Thomas was a Carter or an Outside worker (as listed on his daughters wedding certificate). I'm fairly certain the mothers maiden name was Margaret Mattison and I can only find one possible other birth for a Mary Ellen Thomas with the same mothers maiden name in 1873.

I'm just looking to see if anyone can help me confirm Mary Ellen as the correct child and possibly Thomas' date of death (I may have asked this before but I have memory issues and cant find this in any of my paperwork).

Many thanks, Luke

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Online rosie99

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Re: Thomas Thomas
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 14 October 18 14:33 BST (UK) »
1881 has Thomas Thomas born c1842 Harpurhey
RG11/4081 f44 p3
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q275-MQTK

THOMAS, EMILY       mmn MATTISON     
1881  March Quarter in OLDHAM  Volume 08D  Page 669
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Thomas Thomas
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 14 October 18 14:49 BST (UK) »
There are these details from Lancashsire BMD, a number of Thomas births with mmn Mattison

marriage
MATTISON   Margaret   
THOMAS   Thomas   
1872 Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church)      

birth's
1873 St George  Mary Ellen Thomas mmn Mattison

1873 Great Crosby William Thomas mmn Mattison
1875 Great Crosby Florence May Thomas mmn Mattison
1877 Great Crosby Ernest Edward Thomas mmn Mattison
1879 Great Crosby Ada Thomas mmn Mattison
1879 Great Crosby  Frederick George Thomas mmn Mattison

1880 Oldham Emily Thomas mmn Mattison

1880 Great Crosby William Mackenzie Thomas mmn Mattison
1882 Great Crosby Lily Thomas mmn Mattison

Edited for info.
there's another Thomas / Mattison marriage, the birth entries of children above in sub district of Great Crosby could be the children of Frederick George Thomas & Elizabeth

THOMAS   Frederick G   
MATTISON   Elizabeth   
1869 Walton, St. Mary   Liverpool




Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Thomas Thomas
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 14 October 18 14:58 BST (UK) »
I know he has a further child Emily Thomas in 1880 and that by 1901 his wife is getting remarried and is listed as being widowed.

Could you please you give further details of his wife
on 1901 censuses and whom/when did she remarry?

Edit

Do you know the whereabouts of Margaret, Mary Ellen or Emily Thomas in 1891?


If I am correct Thomas' father is called Owen and Thomas was a Carter or an Outside worker (as listed on his daughters wedding certificate).

I'm fairly certain the mothers maiden name was Margaret Mattison and I can only find one possible other birth for a Mary Ellen Thomas with the same mothers maiden name in 1873.

I'm just looking to see if anyone can help me confirm Mary Ellen as the correct child

I assume you are referring Mary Ellen's marriage and not Emily's?
When/who did she marry?
Does it indicate if her father Thomas is deceased?
Who witnessed the marriage?

Offline gnorman

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Re: Thomas Thomas
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 14 October 18 22:32 BST (UK) »
Thanks guys, I didn't have the census. I don't have an 1891 Census for any of the family and didnt know even the name of Mary Ellen until today.

My great grandma is Emily; she married William Jones in 1900 in Oldham. William died in WWI and in 1917 married Robert Jones (no relation to William) - on this second marriage certificate the brides father is listed as deceased. I have Emily on the 1901 Census and beyond.

Margaret married Lot Butterworth and died in 1920. She is now buried with her daughter Emily in Oldham. On the 1901 Census she is living in Oldham with Lot and James Butterworth, Lot's son.

I really appreciate all this help, thank you!

 

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Thomas Thomas
« Reply #5 on: Monday 15 October 18 07:35 BST (UK) »

Margaret married Lot Butterworth and died in 1920.

She is now buried with her daughter Emily in Oldham.

On the 1901 Census she is living in Oldham with Lot and James Butterworth, Lot's son.


Is this the correct 1901 census?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9G9-C5F
Lot Butterworth   Head                        37   Oldham, Lancashire
Margaret A Butterworth Wife  38   Bradford, Yorkshire
James Butterworth   Son       6   Oldham, Lancashire

Was Lot Butterworth's first wife also named Margaret?

1894 marriage Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended
BUTTERWORTH   Lot   
MULHALL   Margaret A

25 Nov 1894 St Patrick, Oldham, Lancashire
Jacobus Butterworth - filius Lot Butterworth & Margaritae (formerly Mulhall)
Born: 3 Nov 1894, Godparents: Helena Doran

1902 death Oldham Margaret Ann Butterworth age 38   

1906 marriage Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended
BUTTERWORTH   Lot   MASTERSON Margaret      
BUTTERWORTH   Lot   THOMAS   Margaret      

1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4M9-S4G
Lot Butterworth   Head      47   Oldham, Lancashire
Margaret Butterworth   Wife   59   Resident, County Dublin
James Butterworth   Son   16   Oldham, Lancashire


   

Online BumbleB

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Re: Thomas Thomas
« Reply #6 on: Monday 15 October 18 07:56 BST (UK) »
To add to the 1911 entry - Lot and Margaret are said to have been married for 4 years, 1 child still living.
Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
Archbell - anywhere, any date
Kendall - WRY
Milner - WRY
Appleyard - WRY

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Thomas Thomas
« Reply #7 on: Monday 15 October 18 08:02 BST (UK) »

I don't have an 1891 Census for any of the family and didnt know even the name of Mary Ellen until today.
 

This looks to be Thomas Thomas on 1891 census with wife and daughter, Margaret born Dublin

Thomas Thomas   Head   Male   39   Lancashire,  occ. carter
Maggie Thomas   Wife   Female   32   Ireland Dublin
Emily Thomas   Daughter   Female   10   Lancashire
RG12;Piece/Folio:   3312/ 69 / 54
Jackson Street Oldham

Edited

I wonder if their dau Mary Ellen Thomas (mmn Mattison) died and thatís why sheís not on 1891 census with her parents & sister

THOMAS, MARY  ELLEN age 17  (born c 1873)
GRO Reference: 1890  D Quarter in OLDHAM  Volume 08D  Page 567   

In case you were not aware an online pdf version of birth and death cert. which costs £6 can be ordered from GRO

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Thomas Thomas
« Reply #8 on: Monday 15 October 18 09:46 BST (UK) »

1881 has Thomas Thomas born c1842 Harpurhey
RG11/4081 f44 p3
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q275-MQTK

THOMAS, EMILY       mmn MATTISON     
1881  March Quarter in OLDHAM  Volume 08D  Page 669

Could this be the same Thomas, his occ Carter (1881c)
don't know if he's married  edited - noted as 'M' on original, so married
his pob same but the year is out  ???

1901 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9LH-X72
Thomas Thomas age 50 Harpurhey, Lancashire
Residence Note   Shaw Road, Oldham
Occupation   RAILWAY CARTER
Relationship to Head of Household   Lodger
Schedule Type   105 Page Number   14

Edit


Thomas Thomas born 1851 in Manchester.

I've been helped to find prison records for 1874-1878 which lists him as being married with one child.

I know he has a further child Emily Thomas in 1880 and that by 1901 his wife is getting remarried and is listed as being widowed.

If I am correct Thomas' father is called Owen and
Thomas was a Carter or an Outside worker (as listed on his daughters wedding certificate).

I'm fairly certain the mothers maiden name was Margaret Mattison and
I can only find one possible other birth for a Mary Ellen Thomas with the same mothers maiden name in 1873.


To help others here's the marriage detail of
Thomas Thomas to Margaret Mattison
and
Emily Thomas to William Jones

6th April 1872 The Cath. Parish Church Manchester

Thomas Thomas 20 , occ. Calenderer, father Owen, occ. maker up
81 Husband Street

Margaret Mattison 20, father John, carter
54 Haydon St Queens Road

Thomas signed Margaret made her mark (x)
Witnesses were John (H/Marland & Mary Ashton (x) her mark

9th June 1900 St Jamesí Church Oldham

William Jones 20, piecer father David engineer
18 Wallace St

Emily Thomas 19, ring piecer father Thomas, occ out side worker
4 Modlock Passage

both signed
witnesses John Joseph Carter & Eliza Emma Belshaw