Author Topic: Tracing a soldier without a name  (Read 5112 times)

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Tracing a soldier without a name
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 03 September 19 17:01 BST (UK) »
You may find a clue in your mother's name
Could she have been named after the soldiers mother or a female version of his name .

We traced my grandmother's birth father from such a clue

The French birth certificate would certainly help

 DNA confirmed our findings ..it would certainly provide you with some potential surnames from the regiment.

Good luck ...nothing is impossible
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Tracing a soldier without a name
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 03 September 19 18:07 BST (UK) »
Some of your mother's french relatives may know the story or even have photos of their English soldier uncle .
She may have stayed in touch by letter so finding her nieces and nephews if still alive could help.
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline Horbat

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Re: Tracing a soldier without a name
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 04 September 19 00:20 BST (UK) »
Thank you everybody for your replies.  Some details:

The stepfather was Frederick William Gilbert born at Blean in Kent in the first quarter of 1876 according to the GRO index.  I don’t have his exact date of birth but he was baptised the 29th March 1876. He married my grandmother at Gravesend in Kent the 2nd July 1921. I have a copy of their marriage certificate. His profession is given as Blacksmith, as it had been prior to the war. Fortunately his father had a rather uncommon first name, Sion, which has permitted me to isolate the stepfather from the dozens of other Frederick Gilberts which seem to have populated Kent at this time.
 
My grandmother was Valentine Renault, aged 31 according to the marriage certificate. Her father is given as Alfred Renault, profession Baker.

One discordant note on the marriage certificate is Frederick Gilbert’s age which is given as 39 years instead of 46 which would make his year of birth 1882 instead of 1876. However his birth and baptism records and the 1881 and 1891 censuses all confirm his year of birth as 1876. What is more, by the time of the 1939 Register his year of birth has returned to 1876! Did he want to diminish the 15 year age gap with my grandmother or perhaps he had reduced his age to join the army?

My mother was born in 1917, although not in June as I stated by error in my post but on the 29th of May (Oak apple day as she was fond of reminding us).  I don’t have any documentary proof of this – it’s just something that the family has always known.

I don’t know if it would have been necessary for my mother or grandmother to apply for naturalisation. I’ve always assumed that in those days marrying a British citizen was enough to make them British also. There is no mention of them in the on-line naturalisation records at the PRO at Kew.

I don’t have any other information on my grandmother or her father. In fact I’m searching for my grandfather with the hope of finding a clue to help me trace my French ancestors and, hopefully, their descendants.  The great difficulty is that although scans of most French birth marriage and death records are viewable on-line they aren’t centralised – they’re held by each town hall so if you don’t know the town it’s difficult to find the person. One can of course search town by town but as there are 2366  in the 4 departements where the British Army was principally active such a search would take a very very long time!

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Tracing a soldier without a name
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 04 September 19 01:08 BST (UK) »
Hi Horbat,

Thanks for giving some information for Rootchatters to work with.

My first thoughts (and please bear in mind I am no expert) but Frederick was 38 at the outbreak of WW1 and therefore, although not impossible, was quite old to have been a soldier in 1917 , when he befriended the soldier who was your mother's father.

The age discrepancy on his marriage certificate was probably because he was marrying a 31 year old woman . He may have told her he was younger than he really was. He wouldn't be the first or last groom (or bride) to have shaved some years off.
Of course, he may have knocked years off to enlist and continued to lie about his age for a while after   :-\  but I think the fact that he was 15 years older than his bride has more to do with age reduction.

Can I cautiously ask if you have considered the possibility Valentine was already in England when she met Frederick? 

Looby :)





Offline Josephine

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Re: Tracing a soldier without a name
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 04 September 19 01:47 BST (UK) »
I agree with Looby re. Frederick's age making it less likely that he served in the war but it's not impossible. My great-grandfather was born in 1865 and he lied about his age (making himself younger) so he could sign up for the war.

Do you know if Frederick's obit (assuming he had one) mentioned any military service?

Was there an obit for Valentine? Would it have mentioned her place of origin?

Regards,
Josephine
England: Barnett; Beaumont; Christy; George; Holland; Parker; Pope; Salisbury
Scotland: Currie; Curror; Dobson; Muir; Oliver; Pryde; Turnbull; Wilson
Ireland: Carson; Colbert; Coy; Craig; McGlinchey; Riley; Rooney; Trotter; Waters/Watters

Offline Annette7

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Re: Tracing a soldier without a name
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 04 September 19 02:04 BST (UK) »
Another anomaly here is that you state Frederick and Valentine had no children but there is a tree on Ancestry stating they had a son - Henry Frederick - born 1922 Gravesend i.e. the year after their marriage in Gravesend.   He appears as Harry F. Gilbert in 1939 at Luton (where Frederick and Valentine were), married as Henry F. 1947 Luton and died as Harry F. Nov.1995 Luton, (born 4/6/1922).    The birth is the only one in name of Gilbert, mmn Renault and likewise, the marriage of Frederick and Valentine is the only Gilbert/Renault marriage and they all are in Luton by 1939.

Annette

Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
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Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
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Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Tracing a soldier without a name
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 04 September 19 02:18 BST (UK) »
I wonder if the OP could give us their mother's name, please?
It might help to find a birth record if we knew that information too :)

Looby  :)

Offline Annette7

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Re: Tracing a soldier without a name
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 04 September 19 02:39 BST (UK) »
OP's mothers christian names were Violette Valentine - married 1949 as a Gilbert and died in 1993.

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Josephine

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Re: Tracing a soldier without a name
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 04 September 19 03:03 BST (UK) »
Horbat,

Would your mother have needed a birth certificate to apply for any type of government I.D., pension, health care, passport, school registration, etc?

I'm trying to think of any place that might have such info on file but I'm not British and have no idea what might have been required during your mother's lifetime.

Regards,
Josephine
England: Barnett; Beaumont; Christy; George; Holland; Parker; Pope; Salisbury
Scotland: Currie; Curror; Dobson; Muir; Oliver; Pryde; Turnbull; Wilson
Ireland: Carson; Colbert; Coy; Craig; McGlinchey; Riley; Rooney; Trotter; Waters/Watters