Author Topic: Bevis Marks Records II and V - Look up request please  (Read 1241 times)

Offline emjsw

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Re: Bevis Marks Records II and V - Look up request please
« Reply #18 on: Friday 22 May 20 23:35 BST (UK) »
well had a look at the great synagogue as well but no Isaac around the dates
tried for other children from the link but no luck there either did find Abraham on GRO or at least one around date quoted that says MMN Myers  perhaps Isaac wasn't Jewish or perhaps they were all borm overseas just put English on the census
think I am waffling cos a bit baffled!! ::)

Just come across Julia Myers b 1836 married a Henry Barnett 1861 at Great Synagogue which means Ashkenazi. will have another look tomorrow   By way father was Benjamin deceased Julias jewish name would be Yetta

Hello, thanks so much for looking at the Great Synagogue as well, I really appreciate your help. It was very kind of you to look for his potential siblings as well.
Maybe he was no longer Jewish or perhaps he never was although I know his son Isaac 1858 was but he didn't marry a Jewish person. Perhaps they were not observant but kept some traditions? It is also possible that they were born overseas like you say. Catherine, the potential mother was from Holland so perhaps they were born there, at least some of the older children.
It is so confusing!!
It is interesting that in Isaac's second marriage and in Julia's that the father is named as Benjamin and that Julia, Isaac's potential sister was Jewish.

I don't know for sure if Catherine at Frying Pan Alley off Bell Lane was my Isaac's mum, given the information currently available it seems the most likely bet.

Here is the information I have on this family so far:

1826 – Birth of son Jacob Myers 1826 Whitechapel/Aldgate/Artillery Middlesex. Vanishes after 1841, several deaths and marriages fit, maybe he moved to another country?

1828 - Birth of son Aaron Myers 1828-1851 Whitechapel/Aldgate/Artillery Middlesex. Vanishes after 1851. There is a death in 1851Whitechapel but this is for an 8 year old Aaron Myers. 

1829 – Birth of son Isaac Myers 1829 - 1905 Whitechapel/Aldgate/Artillery/Bethnal Green, died Wolverhampton. Father given as Benjamin and Isaac sealing wax maker

1835 birth of Henry Myers 1835 Whitechapel/Aldgate/Artillery. He either vanishes or married Caroline according to poor law removal order see later) . If this is the case he was a painter. In poor law order 1864 he is ‘under sentence’ at Newgate. Committed at Mansion House Police Court, Convicted at the Central Criminal Court at the Old Bailey. 16 June 1862. Newgate. Religion Jewish. Married with 3 children. Name and residence of next of kin – Catherine Myers 2 Bell Lane, Spitalfields. Parole – prison licence granted 30 Sep 1865 age 31. In criminal proceedings he says his next of kin is Catherine and she says her son is Henry in the poor law removal so I am pretty sure they are the same person. On marriage to Caroline Henry says his father is Joseph a porter!!!!!!! Catherine says husband was a Henry Myers in poor law removal but it is not clear whether this Henry was Henry’s father.

1838 – Birth of daughter Julia Myers, Middlesex Spitalfields. She is the first of Catherine’s children to be registered. The father is given as Jacob Myers fruit dealer and mother is Catherine Myers formerly Myers. The address fits with the census and marriage records. When she married she says her father was Benjamin. In 1871 Julia Barnett née Myers and family live right near Catherine.

1841 Birth of son Abraham Myers Spitalfields, death unknown. Likely married Matilda Boseman 1961. His birth is registered to Jacob Myers Clothes dealer and Catherine Myers formally Myers. The addresses and Julia’s marriage address fits with the family’s address in 1841. I have not ordered Abraham’s marriage certificate yet to see who the father was.

1862 – Poor law removal order. 1 Frying Pan Alley age 58. I think the order is for her daughter in law Caroline Myers, (Henry’s wife) and their 3 children. Here Catherine says she married a Henry Myers about 30 years ago in Amsterdam, and that her son Henry is cited in the removal.  She was in the UK before then as she had Jacob, Aaron and Isaac in the country of the place of birth in the census records are correct, although she could have gone back to Amsterdam to get married.

In the 1851 and 1861 census records her mother Sarah Myers is head of House and also born in Holland. Was Catherine a Myers who married a Myers or was Sarah her mother in law? On Julia and Abraham's birth certificates she says Catherine Myers formally Myers.

It is so very confusing and between Catherine, Isaac and his siblings potential fathers are Benjamin, Isaac, Jacob, Henry and Joseph. Maybe the man who fathered them is not the man who raised them?

If anyone can shed any light on this I would be so greatful as I have been going round in circles for at least 12 months with this!!

I am trying to focus on a) who the father of Isaac was and b) trying to find a piece of concrete evidence (like an apprentice records or other documents) to prove the Isaac in Staffordshire is the same as the one at 1 Frying Pan Alley in 1841.

It is interesting that none of the children named their children Catherine if they were OK in naming children after living relatives.

Thanks so much for reading and for your help.

Best wishes Emma
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Offline emjsw

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Re: Bevis Marks Records II and V - Look up request please
« Reply #19 on: Friday 22 May 20 23:49 BST (UK) »
 
Just come across Julia Myers b 1836 married a Henry Barnett 1861 at Great Synagogue which means Ashkenazi.

Ahh thank you, that is really useful to know and will help narrow things down a bit.

Will have another look tomorrow

Thank you so much I really appreciate that, any bit of new information could be a game changer. It is possible brother Abraham married Matilda Boseman/Bosman in 1861 if it was at the Great Synagogue maybe his father is mentioned.

By way father was Benjamin deceased Julias jewish name would be Yetta

Thank you for that, I wonder if Benjamin was never found in the census records because he had to travel with his work or had died in 1841.

Do you happen to know if there Jewish names or alternatives for Catherine and Isaac please?

Thank you for all of your help, I am very grateful.

All the best to you,

Emma
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Offline JustinL

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Re: Bevis Marks Records II and V - Look up request please
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 23 May 20 11:43 BST (UK) »
Hi Emma,

I'm utterly stumped. What a family! Even if we ignore all them bar Issac; he appears to have been very economical with the truth or have a very poor memory.

It will be interesting to see what the 1846 marriage certificate reveals.

I have been trying to decipher the details from the 1851 census entry. Such atrocious handwriting. The first daughter, Ann?, was born in Wolverhampton, but does not appear to have the same surname. It looks like Boyde ... or am I imaging things? The birth of Ann Mayers was recorded in Q2 1846 Wolverhampton. The mother's maiden name was Williams.

Elizabeth "Betsy" Martin, the daughter of confectioner Jacob Martin, was born on 23 Aug 1829 in Peck Lane, Birmingham and baptised on 16 Feb 1830 St. Philip's, Birmingham. I very much doubt that she was Jewish. Isaac junior, therefore, would not have been regarded as a Jew by any of the Jewish communities in the UK at the time. Having a Jewish father wasn't enough. What family stories have been passed down? I would suspect that Isaac senior moved to the Midlands to break from his probable Jewish roots.

I have found a tantalising little titbit. Benjamin Myers married Maria Israel in the Hambro Synagogue on 10 June 1821.

Justin









Offline emjsw

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Re: Bevis Marks Records II and V - Look up request please
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 23 May 20 19:46 BST (UK) »
Hi Emma,

I'm utterly stumped. What a family! Even if we ignore all them bar Issac; he appears to have been very economical with the truth or have a very poor memory.

It will be interesting to see what the 1846 marriage certificate reveals.

I have been trying to decipher the details from the 1851 census entry. Such atrocious handwriting. The first daughter, Ann?, was born in Wolverhampton, but does not appear to have the same surname. It looks like Boyde ... or am I imaging things? The birth of Ann Mayers was recorded in Q2 1846 Wolverhampton. The mother's maiden name was Williams.

Elizabeth "Betsy" Martin, the daughter of confectioner Jacob Martin, was born on 23 Aug 1829 in Peck Lane, Birmingham and baptised on 16 Feb 1830 St. Philip's, Birmingham. I very much doubt that she was Jewish. Isaac junior, therefore, would not have been regarded as a Jew by any of the Jewish communities in the UK at the time. Having a Jewish father wasn't enough. What family stories have been passed down? I would suspect that Isaac senior moved to the Midlands to break from his probable Jewish roots.

I have found a tantalising little titbit. Benjamin Myers married Maria Israel in the Hambro Synagogue on 10 June 1821.

Justin

Hi Justin,
Thank you very much for looking the above up. The marriage of Benjamin to Maria is interesting thanks for flagging it up to me.

The information is all over the place isn't it and it is hard to make head or tail of. So many conflicting parts. I wonder if he was trying to hide his past as it is so hard to define it.

The 1851 census does have terrible writing doesn't it. I have searched the GRO for Ann Boyde/Boyle and various spellings there of and can't find her to place her. I know that there are some records missing from the GRO index but she seems to be another in a long list of mysteries.

I wondered if perhaps he had married a widow surname Boyde/Boyle and that Ann could be his step daughter but I can't find a relevant marriage. interesting that Ann Mayers 1846 mother was a Williams, Betsy's fathers first wife was a Williams, mind you it is a common name and there maybe no link at all.

Thanks for clearing up Betsy's baptism and therefore faith. I had wondered whether there had been a connection with the Jewish population in Devon where Jacob was born but probably doubtful. Jacob Martin was a confectioner too and I wondered if Isaac might have learnt his trade with him but can find no documentation to prove this. Potential mum Catherine was a fruit dealer and some early writings about confectionary link the two professions. Interestingly in 1841 there is a different Jacob Martin who was a confectioner in Middlesex quite near the Myers family in question and I can't help but wonder if the two Jacobs might have been related. Maybe this is how the Myers and Martins met?? Who knows!

Interesting that son Isaac 1858 probably wouldn't have been considered Jewish by the community. He was baptised and may have been raised a Christian and he married a Christian in a church but relatives who knew him when he was alive have said he wore a Yarmulkie and my great grandmother said we have Jewish ancestry which is the basis for my theory. Perhaps his father stepped away from the faith but he and his son may have retained some of the traditions?

Isaac snrs 1st marriage is a mystery too, there is a marriage of Isaac Myers a tailor who married a Rebecca Costa in 1846 Birmingham, his father was Isaac also a tailor but I don't think it is my Isaac as Isaac and Rebecca appear in census records together over many decades and also this Isaac is with his family in Birmingham in 1841 and his father is a tailor.

I wonder if he really was a widow when he married Betsy, if there was a marriage it must have been between 1846-1849 but I can't find one in any county (he was a journeyman confectioner and could have married any where).

I don't think I will find his first marriage. His last wife was alot younger than him and all 4 wives died which is sad for him. One before 1849, Betsy in Walsall 1871, Sarah in Walsall 1878 and the Margaret in Liverpool 1889. I haven't ordered their death certificates yet.

Isaac snr is so mysterious and gave conflicting information which makes him intriguing and is why I keep going back to him to try and work him out.
I feel like there could be a very interesting story there waiting to be found!

Thank you again for your help.
Best wishes
Emma
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Offline sandiep

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Re: Bevis Marks Records II and V - Look up request please
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 23 May 20 21:13 BST (UK) »
the marriage of Benjamin to Maria that Justin mentioned is in the Marriages as

Benjamin Myers Patronymic Nathman b Baruch b Shlomo  M Maria Israel father Isaac Israel
married 10 June 1821

Julias address on marriage was 5 Frying Pan Alley funny bit is her husband Henry Barnett his father is down as Joseph Myers !!

the Abraham Myers that married Matilda(Michia) Bosman his father Was a Benjamin address
3 Dunk St MENT  Her father was Levy Levy! marriage 9 March 1862

I cant see any of others in my books

by way it is through the mother that the Jewish line runs so Isaac if he was Benjamin and Maria(Miriam) son would be Jewish but his and Betseys unless she converted may not have been.
sandie
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Offline emjsw

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Re: Bevis Marks Records II and V - Look up request please
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 23 May 20 22:41 BST (UK) »
the marriage of Benjamin to Maria that Justin mentioned is in the Marriages as

Benjamin Myers Patronymic Nathman b Baruch b Shlomo  M Maria Israel father Isaac Israel
married 10 June 1821

Julias address on marriage was 5 Frying Pan Alley funny bit is her husband Henry Barnett his father is down as Joseph Myers !!

the Abraham Myers that married Matilda(Michia) Bosman his father Was a Benjamin address
3 Dunk St MENT  Her father was Levy Levy! marriage 9 March 1862

I cant see any of others in my books

by way it is through the mother that the Jewish line runs so Isaac if he was Benjamin and Maria(Miriam) son would be Jewish but his and Betseys unless she converted may not have been.
sandie

Hello,
Thanks ever so much for looking that up, now I know that Abraham and Julia give their fathers as Benjamin on marriage. The father is given as Jacob on their birth certificates (if they are the same Abraham and Julia). If this is the same Benjamin that Isaac names then I wonder if he is a sealing wax maker when Julia and Abraham marry?

Either way at least I now have 3 mentions of Benjamin which makes it more likely.

It is possible that Jacob named as the father might have also been known as Benjamin? It is interesting that you mention Dunk Street as there was a confectioner family by the name of Zabell living there around 1840.

"Benjamin Myers Patronymic Nathman b Baruch b Shlomo" I wonder if I might ask for your kind help once again to ask if this sentence might mean something like Benjamin son of Nathman or if Benjamin is also known as Nathman please and how Baruch and Shlomo might fit in? Sorry to have to ask but as you may be able to tell this is a learning curve for me!

That is odd that Henry Barnett should give his father as Joseph Myers, I wish I had a time machine so that I could go and ask them who was related to who!

Gosh Matilda(Michia) Boseman's father was Levy Levy! I wonder if that would be Levy Levy Boseman or if Boseman was her mother's name. I didn't realise that the Jewish line runs through the mother, thank you for telling me. I love to learn new things and this will be very helpful.

The family didn't seem to move far from Frying Pan Alley.

Thanks so much for taking the time to look through the books for me.

I have had a quick look for a Benjamin and Maria in the 1841 census +/- children Isaac, Abraham and Julia but can't find them. I wonder if the Benjamin who married Maria in 1821 was the father of Isaac, Julia and Abraham, maybe Maria is the mother of the older children Jacob, Aaron and Isaac? I am not sure if or how Catherine ties in other than being the mother of Julia and Abraham on their birth certificates (if they are the same Julia and Abraham who say their father was Benjamin when they married). Although she is listed with various young people perhaps some are actually nephews rather than sons or adoptive children.

Lots to think about! Thanks again,
Best wishes
Emma
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Offline JustinL

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Re: Bevis Marks Records II and V - Look up request please
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 24 May 20 15:42 BST (UK) »
According to the records I have, the 1821 marriage was between

Nachman son of Baruch son of Shlomo and Miryam daughter of Ya'acov (not Yitschak, i.e. Isaac)

Benjamin (Nachman) appears to have had two brothers, Abraham and Henry, who married a few years later.

Some Jewish men did have multiple given names, i.e. unrelated given names. Examples from the Great Synagogue marriage register are Benyamin-Chayim or Benyamin-Issachar or Ya'acov-Benyamin-Ezekiel. However, none of the Myers has a Benyamin/Ya'acov combination.

Matilda was the daughter of the cap maker Levy Bosman (b. 1820-24 Rotterdam), who married Elizabeth Phillips in the Great Synagogue on 14 May 1846. Their Hebrew names were Yehuda (known as Leyb) son of Shimshon and Brynah daughter of Pinchas (known as Zelig) the Levite. Levy/Levi was the common secular form of Yehuda-Leyb, such as in Levi Strauss.

Sandie - what does your book say about Julia Myers' father?

More questions ....

Justin


Offline sandiep

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Re: Bevis Marks Records II and V - Look up request please
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 24 May 20 19:20 BST (UK) »
Hi Justin

Julia Myers husband is down as Henry Barnett father Joseph Myers(dec) at end of info it does have a ? Grooms father
I looked at the entry for Henry which says same his patronymic says Zvi b Joseph
Henrys age is down as 30 and Julia as 24
I couldn't see a birth in the books I have at all.
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Offline David paul

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Re: Bevis Marks Records II and V - Look up request please
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 26 May 20 10:27 BST (UK) »
This is a fascinating post my uncles grandmother was a Esther Myers that left Stepney for Newcastle upon Tyne around 1914 we done some research and all names fit thanks David.